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Livery on Scottish trains

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Hellfire

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I'm sure I read somewhere that the Scottish government plans to apply a common livery to all trains running solely in Scotland. I think the justification was to avoid the cost of livery changes if a franchise changes hands.

I can't put my hands on the piece at the moment but I wondered if it is possible to quantify how much money has been spent over the years in livery changes and, should there just be one common livery across the UK?
 
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Eagle

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I'm sure I read somewhere that the Scottish government plans to apply a common livery to all trains running solely in Scotland.

For 'plans to introduce' read 'half the fleet is done already'. The Saltire livery is the one you refer to.

I do agree with the idea of having a fixed livery for each franchise, but what I don't want to see is, for instance, all IC franchises having the same livery. Each livery should be distinctive so you can easily distinguish between trains of different TOCs (which is useful, especially if you have a TOC-specific ticket). Of course you could have, say, a basic livery design for IC franchises, and use a red version for WC, a green version for EC, a purple version for XC and so on, just as long as you can tell which one it belongs to by a glance.
 
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transmanche

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I do agree with the idea of having a fixed livery for each franchise
I think quite a few TOCs now have liveries that don't identify with their parent company - and this would be suitable for use whoever runs the franchise (i.e. CrossCountry, Southern, Southeastern, London Midland, Northern, East Coast, Chiltern). Hopefully this trend will continue.

Of course you could have, say, a basic livery design for IC franchises, and use a red version for WC, a green version for EC, a purple version for XC and so on, just as long as you can tell which one it belongs to by a glance.
What a fab idea!
 

D365

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Haven't we already had several discussions and threads about this? Eagle does sum up my own opinion nicely, and makes a good suggestion for standard liveries, as long as these aren't as drab as East Coast Silver - return to a GNER/Swallow-esquse for EC? We can dream...
 
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Eagle

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Hopefully this trend will continue.

Of course it's the opposite to NX's trend. They lost a bunch of franchises in 2007 and decided to go for a corporate brand (although c2c got away with just a few National Express decals next to the logo).

return to a GNER/Swallow-esquse for EC? We can dream...

I did wonder how long before someone mentioned BR IC livery. Which I hate, and I know I'm in a very small minority there. It was rather horrible when it was introduced (who seriously thought all that black looked good? It's devoid of any colour and spirit) and now it's very horrible and dated (especially the logo. Italic serifs... that is just so unfashionable and 1980s-ish).
 

RPM

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Personally I think the Scottish livery argument is a red herring, for two reasons. Firstly the rolling stock repainting cycle follows a similar timespan to the franchising process so the number of times trains are repainted solely owing to a franchise change is minimal. Secondly most transport organisations, whether private companies or local government bodies, tend to want to update/renew their liveries at least once a decade anyway. I confidently predict that by the time the Scotrail franchise is renewed somebody will have decided that the Saltire livery needs updating or replacing!
 

tbtc

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Personally I think the Scottish livery argument is a red herring, for two reasons. Firstly the rolling stock repainting cycle follows a similar timespan to the franchising process so the number of times trains are repainted solely owing to a franchise change is minimal. Secondly most transport organisations, whether private companies or local government bodies, tend to want to update/renew their liveries at least once a decade anyway. I confidently predict that by the time the Scotrail franchise is renewed somebody will have decided that the Saltire livery needs updating or replacing!

I'm in total agreement.

Since a train is built in one livery, the cost of a handful of new vinyls over a thirty year lifetime is almost irrelevant when you consider each new carriage costs over a million pounds.

Look at how First, Stagecoach and Arriva have all revised their bus liveries (even if the Arriva one is more marginal) and how TOCs like FGW, Midland Mainline and Virgin have revised their livery during a franchise.

Things like seat covers and signage will need replacing every few years regardless of whether they are replaced by identical ones or not.

You can argue in favour of a simple livery, you can argue in favour of a "heirarchy" of colour schemes (like the way that BR had a red band for InterCity and a blue band for ScotRail), but please don't use the excuse that its about saving money - absolute peanuts.

(and that's assuming that units aren't cascadede around the country from one TOC to another a few times over a thirty year lifespan!)
 

overthewater

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Isnt the SPT livery getting replaced aswell? To make a single one covering all trains?

Im sure its been done to make people THINK the government operates the trains, you have to look really closely to found First.
 

Class377/5

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I'm in total agreement.

Since a train is built in one livery, the cost of a handful of new vinyls over a thirty year lifetime is almost irrelevant when you consider each new carriage costs over a million pounds.
Look at how First, Stagecoach and Arriva have all revised their bus liveries (even if the Arriva one is more marginal) and how TOCs like FGW, Midland Mainline and Virgin have revised their livery during a franchise.

Things like seat covers and signage will need replacing every few years regardless of whether they are replaced by identical ones or not.

You can argue in favour of a simple livery, you can argue in favour of a "heirarchy" of colour schemes (like the way that BR had a red band for InterCity and a blue band for ScotRail), but please don't use the excuse that its about saving money - absolute peanuts.

(and that's assuming that units aren't cascadede around the country from one TOC to another a few times over a thirty year lifespan!)

Most TOC are using vinyl to overcome the graffiti problem as its easier and quicker to stick new stickers on a train as methods used to remove the graffiti damages the paint work.

The only figure I've heard (internally) used is that vinyling a train costs around £10k a car. With the multiple graffiti attacks that is a lot of money.
 

overthewater

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Yes, that's being replaced too. In fact SPT now seem to be treating their rail network at arm's length (in fact looking at their website it's hard to find any evidence of rail even existing).

That because, SPT no longer controls any of the train. The way things are going SPT want be controlling anything soon...
 
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