Liverpool: Would It Benefit From 2nd Station?

[dunks]

This has got me wondering especially with High Speed 2 starting to enter many discussions and the prospect of a branch line to both Manchester & Liverpool.

But just how can Liverpool accommodate any expansion of services at any level? And at the woefully cramped Lime St Station? Can you seriously imagine High Speed 2 using Lime St with all existing services aswell?

The Line to Wigan/Manchester is hampered by capacity constraints & slowdown for stopping services, it used to be quadruple to Huyton. The only real benefit being the 4-track main line between Edge Hill & Allerton, this being the primary main line but is intensively used by TPX & London/Crewe trains.

I had thought of the idea of a high speed terminal on the site of the long-closed Liverpool Central High Level, but this also bears the same cramped close-quarters like Lime St - probably worse, then you've to consider conflicting with Merseyrail Electrics on the Garston line.

Its just a great pity Liverpool Exchange was closed & redeveloped with indecent haste, spacious & accommodating for long expresses, it isn't hard to imagine Eurostar being comfortably fitted in there - and it had plenty of track capacity, it was also near Liverpool's business & commercial districts, and probably the most convenient for Pier Head.

Its not easy to see to see a modern day answer for Liverpool, but its clear Manchester benefits from maintaining 2 main line stations, and you could say the same for Birmingham.

Info: Liverpool Central High Level: Info: Liverpool Central High Level: http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...hl/index.shtml

Info: Liverpool Exchange: http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...ge/index.shtml

 

[First class]

In short, yes, Liverpool would benefit from a new transport hub...

I seriously doubt Liverpool will ever get a HS link, as the government and authorites seem to have a very negative attitude towards the city, favouring Manchester on many occassions. The DfT pulled MerseyTram, which says a lot...

The other problem, however, is space. A city centre station is impossible- simply lack of available sites. Unless you start building underground, there is nowhere to go. Underground may be ok for 507/508 units, but 395s etc don't even comply with regs...

My personal opinion is that a HS line isn't really needed. I think OHE to Manchester via Widnes and OHE to Preston via Wigan is more important. That could see new services like Liverpool-Glasgow on pendolino trains... (The Transpennine route would benefit from electrification beyond Manchester... but that's another thing...)

The only improvements to rail Liverpool will ever see are:

3rd rail electrification extension from Ormskirk to Preston
3rd rail electrification extension from Bidston to Wrexham
3rd rail electrification extension from Ellesmere Port to Helsby
Halton Curve made bi-directional and used for Liverpool-N.Wales via Runcorn
Burscough Curves re-instated
Bootle Branch brought back into passenger use
Olive Mount Chord reinstated

They are all listed as projects in my LTP valid until 2012. The only reason they will happen is because Merseytravel PTE and various 3rd parties are funding them, not the government. Most of them will be at least in the planning stages by 2012. The Olive Mount Chord is basically complete!

 

[me123]

Let's look at the other side of the 2-stations coin here. Glasgow has 2; Queen Street serving the North and East and Central serving the South and West (as a general rule). There is a clear benefit separating the commuters, but there is also a large obstacle. Passengers from Aberdeen to Ayr, Edinburgh to Largs, Cumbernauld to East Kilbride, Stirling to Kilmarnock, Falkirk to Cathcart; all these passngers need to make a cross-city link either by foot, the subway or the "wee free bus", and have to add 30 minutes to the journey to do this (allowing for delay etc.). The problem is being addressed with Crossrail coming in (which will divert some trains to Queen Street Low Level) but this only addresses, and can only address, part of the issue.

So what am I rambling about? If Liverpool wer eto have a new station, it should not be so far from Lime Street Station that passengers who need to change between the stations need not be in a position the Glasgow transferers are. However, I do not know if the geography of Liverpool would allow for this.

 

[Lancashire 9F]

I don't think u could fit another station in liverpool
any way i think that the network in south Lancashire should be improved so that express trains stop at St Helens, so us yokels dont have to go all the way into liverpool to get a train to London ect...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Olive Mount Chord reinstated
. . . . . .
The Olive Mount Chord is basically complete!

Yes, I understand that the first test train ran on this new chord yesterday, 5th Dec.
Project Outline : http://www.merseyfreight.org/rail-projects.html

 

[Waverley125]

Some of you may be familiar with my design for the HS network. If liverpool did get an HS station, It'd be underground, quite deep sinc it would be a few undred yards east of the irish sea tunnel mouth for trains to Douglas & Belfast.

On another note, Liverpool and Leeds are the two largest cities in the UK with only one national network station, and both suffer from serious overcrowding. Leeds' problem could be solved by reopening Central, but it shares the same approach as Leeds City, while Leeds Wellington was built nextdoor to City, as its concourse is now the north concourse for city (the shops are built in the old arches which led onto Wellington Station platforms).

 

[First class]

The RUS recently out does actually suggest a new station in Liverpool to meet projected capacity.

The 'disused' platforms in Liverpool Central may be able to be opened up, but they probably haven't been used for a good 20/30years, but again, that is also suggested by Network rail.

 

[bluenoxid]

Who said that Liverpool would get a High Speed Station in the city centre. Popular thinking suggests that the Ebbsfleet Model, with a high quality light and heavy rail links may be used instead and a turn up and go frequency. Why spend a billion on a few miles of tunnel when you can spend a billion and build 50 miles of HSL.

A HSL is likely to be used to increase capacity on existing lines for more and new services. This will mean that most of the Intercity services will transfer on to the HSL, meaning that the space will instead be able to be used by the HSL trains. The problem we have is how we clear these HSL trains into the cities as they will have to use existing tracks and constricted infrastructure

 

[route:oxford]

Let's look at the other side of the 2-stations coin here. Glasgow has 2; Queen Street serving the North and East and Central serving the South and West (as a general rule). There is a clear benefit separating the commuters, but there is also a large obstacle. Passengers from Aberdeen to Ayr, Edinburgh to Largs, Cumbernauld to East Kilbride, Stirling to Kilmarnock, Falkirk to Cathcart; all these passngers need to make a cross-city link either by foot, the subway or the "wee free bus", and have to add 30 minutes to the journey to do this (allowing for delay etc.). The problem is being addressed with Crossrail coming in (which will divert some trains to Queen Street Low Level) but this only addresses, and can only address, part of the issue.

Have there ever been direct trains from Central Scotland to England that have routed via Glasgow? I recall years ago it was possible to get a direct train from Stirling to Oxford, but I'm not sure of the route.

Whenever I walk between the two stations, I always think how useful it would be to have a network of underground pedestrian walkways - a bit like Toronto...

"wee free bus"

Love the idea. It wouldn't run on a Sunday though.

 

[me123]

Have there ever been direct trains from Central Scotland to England that have routed via Glasgow? I recall years ago it was possible to get a direct train from Stirling to Oxford, but I'm not sure of the route.

Don't think it's possible. They would probably have travelled via Edinburgh. There's no realistic way of running across Glasgow at the moment, without having to reverse in at least one place. The few routes available also require either a run through the congested Partick or to use disused/non passenger lines. Crossrail would make these journeys theoretically possible.

Love the idea. It wouldn't run on a Sunday though.

It is a reality! And it does run on a Sunday. It's free to holders of a valid rail ticket, but in reality they never seem to check the ticket.

Of course, it's not too long to walk between the two stations and the subway isn't too far away.

 

[route:oxford]

It is a reality! And it does run on a Sunday. It's free to holders of a valid rail ticket, but in reality they never seem to check the ticket.

Erm, was just teasing...

"Wee Free" usually refers to the "Free Church of Scotland" whose members are opposed to engaging any activity other than worship on a Sunday.

 

[me123]

Didn't know that... learn something new every day!

Not much of a "free" church then if they can't do anything other than worship on Sunday...

 

[Mojo]

Is that rather like my former local newspaper, the Bucks Free Press? Price: 40p

 

[djw1981]

Didn't know that... learn something new every day!

Not much of a "free" church then if they can't do anything other than worship on Sunday...

1. they aim to be free from this world and the secularity of it.

2. The Stirling-South West / South Coast direct trains ran via Braidhurst Loop and Motherwell. Weegies wishing to travel on it had to go to Motherwell.

 

[me123]

1; example of sarcasm
2; show off

 

[jopsuk]

1. they aim to be free from this world and the secularity of it.

TANGENT ALERT! The Free churches are so named (and there have been many and varied) as they broke free of the central organisation of the Church of Scotland. "Wee Frees" tends to be a catch all term for all the various factions.

 

[djw1981]

1; example of sarcasm
2; show off

1. Respect for the patients beliefs etc etc etc etc VS rule 1949457645.
2. No, just an ability to remember trivia but not medical fact.

 

[me123]

 

[xtradj]

the problem with liverpool, which i was only made to realise while on this forum

is you can have a service to glasgow... but when liverpool is only 30mins from wigan which has hourly / half hourly services it wouldnt work

we lost the reading service because not enough people needed it, because from stafford you can get direct trains

we lost the cardiff service because you can go to chester and crewe for it

etc etc

thats what limits our services, and the reason why we have lost so many trains in recent years

 

[Skie]

The RUS recently out does actually suggest a new station in Liverpool to meet projected capacity.

The 'disused' platforms in Liverpool Central may be able to be opened up, but they probably haven't been used for a good 20/30years, but again, that is also suggested by Network rail.

Central has disused platforms? I know I've heard the same person go on forever that there is a platform next to the existing upper level island, but never gave that any credence.

And if you mean the old high-level platforms, then those are about to have a tower-block planted on them

 

[First class]

They can't have concrete on them, they're underground. You can't access them unless the ECO has isolated the 3rd rail because the entrance is right next to the live rail.

Go to the Sandhills end of the Northern Line on Platform 2, (Southport/Kirkby), near the 6-car stop board and you will see a black metal door, and behind that is a hole in the wall, which leads to a massive space with some old bits of rail still down and remains of at least 2 platforms, at the same level of the current Northern Line. There is some sort of defunct electrical device in there dated February 1977, possibly a telephone plug-point of some sort.

None of the staff seem to know why they are there, but my guess is that when the underground station was first constructed, provision was made for additional services that perhaps came to nothing.