Liverpool to York in 1924

[Capybara]

I'm trying to find out something about travelling between Liverpool and York in 1924. I've found from Timetable World that in 1947, just before nationalisation, there was a direct train from Liverpool (Exchange) to Newcastle calling at York. Would there have been such a thing in 1924? And if there wasn't, where would someone need to change? Even if there was a direct service, what other options involving changes would there have been? I'd be grateful for any information you could provide. Thanks.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

York would have been the obvious place to change from the L&Y network to the NER, perhaps with a few through services on a joint basis.
The L&Y would have run via Atherton, the Calder Valley, Normanton and the York & North Midland to reach York independently of the LNWR/NER service via Leeds.

I was intrigued to find that while the North Country Continental ran from Liverpool Central to Harwich on a GC/GE route via Woodhead and Lincoln, there was at one time a portion from Liverpool Exchange via the L&Y route to Doncaster, where it joined an NER portion which eventually merged with the main train at Lincoln.
That was pre-grouping, but operations like that mostly continued in LMS/LNER days sometimes even up to nationalisation.
The main rationalisations by the Big 4 were on "internal" overlapping LNWR/Midland/L&Y routes (LMS) and GNR/NER/GC routes (LNER).
The LMS and GWR also rationalised their pre-grouping services on lines like the North & West via Shrewsbury.

 

[S&CLER]

I'm trying to find out something about travelling between Liverpool and York in 1924. I've found from Timetable World that in 1947, just before nationalisation, there was a direct train from Liverpool (Exchange) to Newcastle calling at York. Would there have been such a thing in 1924? And if there wasn't, where would someone need to change? Even if there was a direct service, what other options involving changes would there have been? I'd be grateful for any information you could provide. Thanks.

Can't say about 1924, but the July 1922 Bradshaw reprint shows a Liverpool Ex. -York dining car train at 1025, arriving at 1315, having called at Manchester and Wakefield Kirkgate. There was an evening departure at 1835, arriving at 2214.
My first ever trip to York was on a Sunday morning dmu from Liverpool Exchange in 1967, via Normanton. Nearly everyone got off at Sowerby Bridge to board the connection for Bradford and Leeds.

 

[Capybara]

Thanks, that's very helpful. The 1947 timetable shows trains at roughly those times (though slightly slower) so I can probably assume that they both ran through that period.

 

[47296lastduff]

Outside your query date, but my Nov 1936 Bradshaw shows through weekday services, 1 each way using Liv Exch and L&Y route, and another 3 each way using Lime St and LNW route.
0900/1420 Lime St via Harrogate and Sunderland, Newcastle 1351/1924.
1000/1617 back the same way, Lime St 1443/2146.
1700 Lime St via Harrogate and Darlington, Newcastle 2113.
0855 back via York, Lime Street 1309.
1045 Exchange via York, Newcastle 1525.
1700 back the same way, Exch 2220.
There were also plenty of other options by changing at Leeds or York.

 

[Bevan Price]

Also cannot help with 1924, but an LMSR timetable for Summer 1928 shows:
From Liverpool Exchange dep.:
09:02 (SX) to Hull; via Bolton, Bury Knowsley St. & Rochdale;
combined at Rochdale with Manchester Victoria to York & Scarborough service. York arr 12:25
09:02 (SO) to York & Hull, arr. York 1225
10:55 to York & Newcastle; called Manchester Vic., Wakefield & Normanton; York. arr. 13:42
14:45 to Manchester Vic, connection to York, arr. 17:56; train also conveyed Manchester to Burnley portion as far as Rochdale
15:55 to Manchester Vic., connection to York, arr. 1941
18:35 to York, arr. 22:10 (semi-fast via Wakefield Kirkgate)

From Liverpool Lime Street dep.:
09:30 to Scarborough; York arr. 12:35
All other trains from Lime St. required a change at Leeds.

Return from York
09:55 to Manchester Victoria, connection to Liverpool Exchange (13:20)
12:05 to Manchester Victoria, coonection to Liverpool Exchange (15:20)
15:50 (14:45 ex- Scarborough) to Man. Vic; connection to L'pool Ex. (19:15)
19:07 (16:50 ex- Newcastle) to Liverpool Exchange (22:08 SO, or 22:20 SX)

13:12 SO (12:05 ex- Scarborough) to Liverpool Lime Street (16:40)
15:30 SX (14:20 ex-Scarborough) to Liverpool Lime Street (19:00)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Taunton]

It seemed a longstanding thing (lasting for some trains into BR days) that LNW route trains from Liverpool through Leeds to Newcastle did not serve York, but went on the somewhat convoluted secondary main line route through Cross Gates, Harrogate and Ripon. L&Y trains from Liverpool and Manchester did run via York, but as the L&Y did not serve Leeds (contrary to some accounts) they routed via Wakefield and Normanton. As both routes from Leeds north to Newcastle were fully North Eastern Railway throughout, there must have been some agreement that through services went these separate ways.

The L&Y locos did run through beyond Normanton to York - although only a North Eastern Railway station from all directions, York competed with Carlisle for the number of different pre-grouping company locos that could be seen there.

 

[Bevan Price]

It seemed a longstanding thing (lasting for some trains into BR days) that LNW route trains from Liverpool through Leeds to Newcastle did not serve York, but went on the somewhat convoluted secondary main line route through Cross Gates, Harrogate and Ripon. L&Y trains from Liverpool and Manchester did run via York, but as the L&Y did not serve Leeds (contrary to some accounts) they routed via Wakefield and Normanton. As both routes from Leeds north to Newcastle were fully North Eastern Railway throughout, there must have been some agreement that through services went these separate ways.

The L&Y locos did run through beyond Normanton to York - although only a North Eastern Railway station from all directions, York competed with Carlisle for the number of different pre-grouping company locos that could be seen there.

Until the end of steam, many (ex-LNWR/LMSR) Liverpool / Newcastle (ex-NER/LNER) services reversed at / changed locos at Leeds (New / City as it was), and ran via Headingley to Harrogate, Ripon & Northallerton. Through running by diesels enabled trains to run (without reversal) via Cross Gates & Wetherby to Harrogate.

A minor pedant note - the L&YR trains did serve Leeds, but at Leeds Central, with running powers over (partly) GNR tracks from Low Moor.

 

[tbwbear]

This is taken from Michael Harris' excellent book "British Main Line Services" for the year 1922 (just pre grouping)......

For Liverpool to York and Newcastle on the L&Y route from Exchange.

One train a day to Newcastle which had been cut back to York for the war and had just been restored to Newcastle in 1920. The departure time from Exchange is not mentioned but he does say that it has been accelerated to run Manchester to Wakefield non-stop in 70 minutes. Return from Newcastle was 4:55pm, so I am guessing this could possibly be the 10:55am departure mentioned by Bevan Price above. It is possible it ran in the same slot from 1920 to 1928 isn't it ? There was even a 10:55am Liverpool to York mentioned back in 1908.

A 2pm Liverpool to Hull boat train is also mentioned with a York portion being dropped at Wakefileld.


Just for reference - On the LNWR (Lime Street) Route to Newcastle (NOT via York but via Ripon exactly as mentioned by Taunton above) two trains, for which some new rolling stock (6 coach sets which were dual fitted for haulage by NER and LNWR locomotives) had been provided in 1917.

Departures in Summer 1922 were at 8:35am (taking 5 hours 48 min) and 2:10pm (taking 5 hours 47 mins) to Newcastle. No restaurant cars on either service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The L&Y locos did run through beyond Normanton to York - although only a North Eastern Railway station from all directions, York competed with Carlisle for the number of different pre-grouping company locos that could be seen there.

That would date right back to the beginning of rail in Yorkshire in the 1840s, when the Castleford route (Y&NM) was the only route to York from the Manchester (L&Y) and Derby/Leeds (Midland) directions.
Even the GN reached York first over the Y&NM.

 

[Capybara]

This is all not only useful but very interesting. I think it's established that from pre-Grouping right through to just before Nationalisation there was a direct train from Exchange to York departing in the 10:25-10:55 window. I'm also interested in the information about trains going through/to Harrogate, having lived there for some years. Many thanks.

 

[S&CLER]

This is all not only useful but very interesting. I think it's established that from pre-Grouping right through to just before Nationalisation there was a direct train from Exchange to York departing in the 10:25-10:55 window. I'm also interested in the information about trains going through/to Harrogate, having lived there for some years. Many thanks.

Not in the time-frame you mentioned, but in the 1960s dmus from Liverpool Exchange ran through to Harrogate, reversing at Leeds Central. I think it was a more or less hourly service.

 

[Capybara]

Not in the time-frame you mentioned, but in the 1960s dmus from Liverpool Exchange ran through to Harrogate, reversing at Leeds Central. I think it was a more or less hourly service.

Yes, I have a 1967 North Eastern Region timetable which shows a two-hourly (half-past the even hour) service from Exchange, taking precisely three hours and reversing at Leeds City as Central had just closed.

 

[Senex]

That would date right back to the beginning of rail in Yorkshire in the 1840s, when the Castleford route (Y&NM) was the only route to York from the Manchester (L&Y) and Derby/Leeds (Midland) directions.
Even the GN reached York first over the Y&NM.

It tends to be forgotten just how late (1869) the route through Leeds came into being and the Leeds & Selby line came back to being the main way out of Leeds for York.
I think it was by way of the North Midland, not the York & North Midland, that the GN first got into Leeds. The route was from that end-on junction "in a ploughed field north of Doncaster" to Knottingley and on through Pontefract to Methley Jn over the L&Y, and then over the North Midland into Leeds.

 

[Capybara]

Out of interest, does anyone know when through trains from Liverpool Exchange to Harrogate ceased? We moved to Harrogate in late 1968 and I don't really recall anything running then, although I really only became interested in railways a couple of years later, by which time trains from Harrogate were all terminating at Leeds.

 

[marsker]

The line from Harrogate through Ripon to Northallerton closed in March 1967. Until then, there were 2 trains each way between Newcastle and Liverpool that were routed that way, although by then they ran to Lime Street. From memory, departures from Newcastle were around 08:30 - via Darlington and York, 09:30 - via Sunderland and Ripon, around 15:30 - via Darlington and Ripon and around 17:30 - via Darlington and York. A far cry from today's hourly service. These were generally about 10 coach trains with a buffet restaurant car and, by then, motive power was what later became Class 40, or sometimes Class 46 loco.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It maybe worth noting that enhancement of the whole of the York-Northallerton route to four tracks (except over Skelton Bridge) wasn't completed until after the Modernisation Plan as far as I understand. Thus avoiding York by running via Harrogate and Ripon could be a useful operational gambit.