Liverpool to Norwich - Direct Services

[TheBigD]

There really is demand, several people who live here have stated that many trains departing Norwich are very full. One person stated they weren't but was always travelling the other way. Many other opinions that it is empty from people who don't use the service at all

It's only 2 carriages east as there simply aren't enough 158's to run every diagram as a 4 carriage train.

I also agree they could fill more seats, a lot of people go via London now to Sheffield or Manchester as it is roughly the same time, often cheaper and more comfortable trains.

As someone who used to work the Norwich-Nottingham section for 7 years I rarely encountered overcrowding except for a few summer Saturday services and the 0840 arrival into of Nottingham (now a 4 car working) and the 1735 out of Nottingham,. Friday afternoon loadings were heavier but still no major crowding issues... Winter Sunday service between Norwich & Ely (& vv) were very busy when the GEML was closed and London passengers travelled via Ely.

These days I see the service go past the signalbox everyday and many services have lots of empty seats (there's a TSR so trains pass by slowly)...
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That's interesting, because I remember reading/hearing exactly the opposite. IRRC, in the early 90s at least half, maybe more, of the trains ran via Loughborough, and BR expected the student population there to be a decent source of revenue, but this did not work out. hence the effort to route via Grantham and save the 15 mins.

In the early days (1990?) one or two evening trains were routed via Derby and stopped at Belper too - as the Pancras - Leeds services meant they were not needed for the Notts - Sheffield stations.

Apologies if I've got the dates wrong but from around 1993 (I think) through to the early 2000's most services were routed via Loughborough... Though the peak arrival into/out of Nottingham still ran via Grantham...
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As an aside, the 1989 timetable saw a 150/1 rostered on the 0750 Oakham-Leicester which then worked the 0830 Leicester-Blackpool (via Nottingham)...

158's also worked a morning Bedford-Manchester and evening Manchester-Leicester for a brief period in the 1990's...

 

[unlevel42]

When buying tickets online between Sheffield and Cambridge it is very much more likely that you will be offered a via Doncaster or via Leicester ticket than a simple EMT change at Ely service- even on the EMT site.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I use them regularly - 1 coach would be sufficient between 11:00-16:00, i.e. the daytime. The busy services are people connecting into longer journeys at Peterborough, so early morning from Norwich, late evening services to Norwich.

I work them regularly and I'd struggle to fit everybody into one coach and not have standee between those times. What is needed I think is a later service from Norwich, probably a 2057 back via Loughborough as a counterpart to the morning trains.

 

[Class 170101]

I work them regularly and I'd struggle to fit everybody into one coach and not have standee between those times. What is needed I think is a later service from Norwich, probably a 2057 back via Loughborough as a counterpart to the morning trains.

The 20:57 (albeit via Grantham) runs on Sundays but not the rest of the week which seems strange. Does anyone know why this is?

 

[TheBigD]

...What is needed I think is a later service from Norwich, probably a 2057 back via Loughborough as a counterpart to the morning trains.

A far better Sunday service is needed as well... Filling the 3 hour gap between the 1047 and 1349 departures from Norwich...
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The 20:57 (albeit via Grantham) runs on Sundays but not the rest of the week which seems strange. Does anyone know why this is?

If it ran in the week then the 0550 departure from Norwich would be reduced to a 2 car working again, which would probably require an extra peak hour service between Grantham and Nottingham...

 

[dosxuk]

There is sparse demand on the Eastern Side, which is why trains are only 2-coaches with plenty of seats available, save for 2/3 trains in the peak hours.

I don't think advertising is going to create much additional demand, because you are advertising a pretty basic and slow service, with quite high fares.

Well quite. I've been travelling between Norwich and Sheffield regularly (probably averaging monthly) for the last 14 years.

In the Central days, before the current stock shortage, fares were cheap and the trains were longer. Back then it was rare to find pairs of seats available upon leaving Norwich, and by Ely there would be people standing. This is pretty much at any time of the day. Similar loadings on the return.

I seriously doubt that these passengers have just disappeared. More likely they do like I do and travel on the less crowded, cheaper, slightly longer services via London when appropriate.

So by getting new, longer trains, doing some promotion about the benefits of not changing trains, and making more advance tickets available, you could easily get that custom back onto the route. Unfortunately, we've boxed ourselves into a corner of not buying new diesel trains even though we've desperately needed them for over a decade.

Having read what people on here have written, it is essentially a few different routes, simply joined together for operational convenience.

If that was the case the outcry that happens every time someone suggests splitting it at Nottingham wouldn't happen. A significant number of people use the service for long distances, on journeys that would take far longer if it was split into nice manageable chunks that looked good on a franchise map.

End to end, it's a pretty poor cross-country service, but conversely, it's a pretty good service to connect in to/out of.

The real demand is all between Nottingham-Liverpool. Norwich needs better links to Birmingham and the West Midlands, not the North West of England.

Norwich is only one connection away from Birmingham and the West Midlands. Lots of people use the service between the North West and Norwich, sometimes surprisingly so. I only go as far as Sheffield, but I'm never the only person from Norwich who gets off at the other end.

If the stock existed to double both the Norwich-Liverpool and Stansted-Birmingham lines, with alternating destinations, I'd be all for it. But we don't. So I think we're better off dealing with the current easy connections than breaking existing routes and removing journey possibilities.

 

[Class 170101]

If it ran in the week then the 0550 departure from Norwich would be reduced to a 2 car working again, which would probably require an extra peak hour service between Grantham and Nottingham...

Does it need to be more than two carriages before Peterborough though?

 

[TheBigD]

Does it need to be more than two carriages before Peterborough though?

Only needs more than 2 after Grantham...

 

[lejog]

Do I recall reading correctly somewhere that before passenger services could run over the Philips park line it would need a signalling upgrade?

I thought that, but this was posted on the Northern franchise thread. It seems that TPE are preparing to use the line for diversions during electrification to Stalybridge.

Currently one service per week (Liverpool Newcastle from memory) early Sunday that uses Phillips Park to Ashburys (and back to Stalybridge from Guide Bridge)?

 

[bunnahabhain]

Only needs more than 2 after Grantham...

It's also one of those that doesn't really need more than two West of Nottingham. I've not worked it for six months or more now but it was always one of my favourite Liverpool services to work because you avoided all the busy traffic, you were only the first off peak service from Chesterfield as well, so you didn't really pick up day travellers.

 

[ashworth]

Well quite. I've been travelling between Norwich and Sheffield regularly (probably averaging monthly) for the last 14 years.

In the Central days, before the current stock shortage, fares were cheap and the trains were longer. Back then it was rare to find pairs of seats available upon leaving Norwich, and by Ely there would be people standing. This is pretty much at any time of the day. Similar loadings on the return.

I seriously doubt that these passengers have just disappeared. More likely they do like I do and travel on the less crowded, cheaper, slightly longer services via London when appropriate.

It isn't a route I travel on regularly, but it's always been fairly busy between Nottingham and Norwich when I have done.

I totally agree about the high fares now on this route. I regularly book tickets between Nottingham and Norwich for an elderly relative and even with her Senior Railcard it's becoming difficult to get a single fare under £20 for journeys leaving Norwich mid morning, whereas just a couple of years ago it was no problem getting fares single advance fares at under £10!

I've just been looking at advance fares on this route for early March and even mid week in the middle of the day they are now extremely expensive.
Apart from a few cheaper fares early in the morning or late evening, advance fares, even booking nearly 12 weeks ahead are high.
Nottingham to Norwich fares are £22, £26 or £31.
Sheffield to Norwich fares are £30, £35, £43 or £52.
Manchester to Norwich fares are £37, £45 or £55.
These fares are far higher than off peak advance fares to London and are often so high that it sometimes works out almost as cheap or occasionally even cheaper to buy a ticket on the day of travel.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

It isn't a route I travel on regularly, but it's always been fairly busy between Nottingham and Norwich when I have done.

I totally agree about the high fares now on this route. I regularly book tickets between Nottingham and Norwich for an elderly relative and even with her Senior Railcard it's becoming difficult to get a single fare under £20 for journeys leaving Norwich mid morning, whereas just a couple of years ago it was no problem getting fares single advance fares at under £10!

I've just been looking at advance fares on this route for early March and even mid week in the middle of the day they are now extremely expensive.
Apart from a few cheaper fares early in the morning or late evening, advance fares, even booking nearly 12 weeks ahead are high.
Nottingham to Norwich fares are £22, £26 or £31.
Sheffield to Norwich fares are £30, £35, £43 or £52.
Manchester to Norwich fares are £37, £45 or £55.
These fares are far higher than off peak advance fares to London and are often so high that it sometimes works out almost as cheap or occasionally even cheaper to buy a ticket on the day of travel.

A few years ago, Megatrain used to sell tickets for this route and it was possible to get from Sheffield to Norwich for as little as £1 each way!

 

[Mitch in Notts]

A few years ago, Megatrain used to sell tickets for this route and it was possible to get from Sheffield to Norwich for as little as £1 each way!

Yes they did as I did Nottingham to Norwich to £6 there and back with Megatrain and that was 0752 out of Nottingham & 1754 return! Ah the good old days...

Doing that on the 1st February 2016 would cost me £34 - but £23 if I return at 1857. Not too bad.

 

[bramling]

It isn't a route I travel on regularly, but it's always been fairly busy between Nottingham and Norwich when I have done.

I totally agree about the high fares now on this route. I regularly book tickets between Nottingham and Norwich for an elderly relative and even with her Senior Railcard it's becoming difficult to get a single fare under £20 for journeys leaving Norwich mid morning, whereas just a couple of years ago it was no problem getting fares single advance fares at under £10!

I've just been looking at advance fares on this route for early March and even mid week in the middle of the day they are now extremely expensive.
Apart from a few cheaper fares early in the morning or late evening, advance fares, even booking nearly 12 weeks ahead are high.
Nottingham to Norwich fares are £22, £26 or £31.
Sheffield to Norwich fares are £30, £35, £43 or £52.
Manchester to Norwich fares are £37, £45 or £55.
These fares are far higher than off peak advance fares to London and are often so high that it sometimes works out almost as cheap or occasionally even cheaper to buy a ticket on the day of travel.

Considering the distance I wouldn't have said any of those fares are massively excessive. Obviously the totals would start to add up relative to going by car if more than one person travels together.

 

[ashworth]

Considering the distance I wouldn't have said any of those fares are massively excessive. Obviously the totals would start to add up relative to going by car if more than one person travels together.

I agree that none of those fares appear to be excessive for the distance. However, for advance fares, booked nearly 12 weeks in advance, they are more than double what these fares were only a year to 18 months ago. The very cheap, lowest tier of Advance fares, with fares from Nottingham to Norwich of under £10 were available on a number of trains throughout the day, and were nearly always available around midday. Now these lowest fares are only available on a handful of very early morning or late evening trains.
If many of these off peak trains east of Nottingham are running with lots of empty seats, then why are the cheapest fares no longer being offered. Is it perhaps because these trains are not quite as lightly loaded as some are saying or are EMT charging too much. You don't have to go back to the days of Central Trains for the cheap advance fares as these were available with EMT until very recently.

 

[Foxcover]

This thread got me thinking about my days as a student travelling between Manchester and Nottingham just before the Sprinter revolution - if anyone else remembers the European and the Rhinelander, there's an excellent and accurate history of those named trains at this link:

https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com...-services-of-greater-manchester-the-european/

Not written by me but it brought the memories back! I rode the last Rhinelander to Sheffield and the last NorthWest Dane back to Nottingham on the day before the hourly sprinter timetable came into force for the first time - the last loco-hauled trains had headboards and ribbons and as I remember it there was quite a sense of occasion about it along the line!

 

[childwallblues]

It isn't a route I travel on regularly, but it's always been fairly busy between Nottingham and Norwich when I have done.

I totally agree about the high fares now on this route. I regularly book tickets between Nottingham and Norwich for an elderly relative and even with her Senior Railcard it's becoming difficult to get a single fare under £20 for journeys leaving Norwich mid morning, whereas just a couple of years ago it was no problem getting fares single advance fares at under £10!

I've just been looking at advance fares on this route for early March and even mid week in the middle of the day they are now extremely expensive.
Apart from a few cheaper fares early in the morning or late evening, advance fares, even booking nearly 12 weeks ahead are high.
Nottingham to Norwich fares are £22, £26 or £31.
Sheffield to Norwich fares are £30, £35, £43 or £52.
Manchester to Norwich fares are £37, £45 or £55.
These fares are far higher than off peak advance fares to London and are often so high that it sometimes works out almost as cheap or occasionally even cheaper to buy a ticket on the day of travel.

I have just done a check using two random days for a return from Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich.
I chose for the outward journey 21/01/2016 and found a single with a SENIOR Railcard on the 1047 for £21.80.
The return from Norwich on 26/01/2016 on the 0900 is £17.50 making a total of £39.30. When I did the journey back in 2013 I think it was about £37 for the same journey.
Now as LIV-NRW is probably twice the distance of NOT-NRW perhaps the further that you go the cheaper it gets!

 

[Class 170101]

Only needs more than 2 after Grantham...

Even better. I was being generous to Peterborough as that train leaves there around 07:30 and arriving Nottingham at 08:40.

 

[urbophile]

£23 if I return at 1857. Not too bad.

A good deal less if you returned TO 1857!

 

[dk1]

Like many long distance routes, Trains on the Eastern section have been extremely busy this week. 10:57, 11:57 & 12:57 ex-Norwich have been FAS this week on departure. Even Sunday's 10:47 departed with 147 but luckily is booked for 2x158. The 3hr gap in EMT services & engineering work on the GEML led to passengers being put on supplement buses to Ely as Anglia 170s where so crowded. The 12:03 lost 9min to Brandon trying to load more more en-route.

 

[bunnahabhain]

The 3hr gap in EMT services & engineering work on the GEML led to passengers being put on supplement buses to Ely as Anglia 170s where so crowded. The 12:03 lost 9min to Brandon trying to load more more en-route.

It begs the question as to why GA couldn't run a few hauled sets via Ely, Norwich to London calling Ely and Cambridge only. Bust the crowds and keep folk moving on steel wheels instead of doing what seems to be the default and giving up. It does irritate me to have to leave my own passengers behind because I'm full of folk diverted for London because GA don't provide suitable alternatives for when the GEML is closed somewhere.

 

[Class 170101]

It begs the question as to why GA couldn't run a few hauled sets via Ely, Norwich to London calling Ely and Cambridge only. Bust the crowds and keep folk moving on steel wheels instead of doing what seems to be the default and giving up. It does irritate me to have to leave my own passengers behind because I'm full of folk diverted for London because GA don't provide suitable alternatives for when the GEML is closed somewhere.

Its been planned before using 170s and 317s changing at Ely. Politically it causes problems. Now the 170s aren't available as they were previously spare not running to / from London via Chelmsford.

Hauled sets are subject to severe penalties over the Norwich to Ely section due to Sprinter differentials - as much as 40/75 in places.

 

[ALEMASTER]

The Hope Valley has low-capacity signalling and poor connections at either end. It also has enough freight to cause pathing problems.
The eastern end is due to be upgraded during MML electrification, with Dore redoubling and a freight loop, but there are no plans for the western end.
Through trains to Liverpool have to go via Stockport - the Romiley route is OK for Piccadilly but NR are not going to let through trains go that way and repeat the TP North problems the Ordsall Chord is being built to solve.
The CLC has no proper overtaking capability at the obvious point (Warrington), and the Chat Moss is getting full.
Also, I would have thought TP South has a stronger call for an extra Hope Valley path than EMT, or even an extra Northern stopper to make an hourly service.

The Hope Valley stopper is to become hourly in the new Northern franchise.
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There's a lot of suppressed demand on the eastern end of the route, simply because of the lack of rolling stock. Central actual admitted in the press in the early 00's that they had had to raise ticket prices to lower the demand.

I'm travelling Norwich to Sheffield tomorrow. It's cheaper for me to go via London. And having had to stand for the entire reverse journey in the past, I'm quite happy that I know I'll definitely find a seat by going the slightly longer route.

If the prices were more equal, and the trains not packed to the rafters, I'd certainly choose to use the direct train. But until we get some new stock that isn't likely to happen. I've said before, I'd like to see new 5 car trains, with a small first class section used along the entire route. Some promotion and offers would soon see the number of passengers on the Norwich end fill far more than the current 2 car offering could support.

There are some reasonable priced advance fares:
Norwich to:
Nottingham from £10
Sheffield from £13
Manchester from £15.50
Liverpool from £16.50

 

[Camden]

A real world search shows prices are typically higher than the "starting from" price. Especially when looking for direct trains, rather than travelling into London and our again.

 

[ashworth]

A real world search shows prices are typically higher than the "starting from" price. Especially when looking for direct trains, rather than travelling into London and our again.

That's what I was saying earlier. These prices still are available but only on a very limited number of trains, often only on the first train very early in the morning and last trains at night. Until this last year these prices were also available on a few off peak trains in the middle of the day and there were only a handful of trains with high prices. Now most of the trains leaving Norwich in the mornings 0957, 1057, 1157, 1257 regularly now only have fares 3 times that amount available.

 

[CockneySparrow]

EMT ran a test run to Norwich in 222013 in 2009 - it proved to be too slow in the sections of track with MU speeds south of Peterborough, so they've never ran in passenger service past there.
222s are cleared to Cambridge - this comes from when Hull Trains used to divert via there - I've even seen a photo of a 222 in one of the bay platforms there!

Think the stretch between Peterborough and Ely is ok as its always been the diversion from the ECML, think the issues are between Ely and Norwich with the line speed being low, also with the new signalling equipment along the brecks will need tinkering with
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Its been planned before using 170s and 317s changing at Ely. Politically it causes problems. Now the 170s aren't available as they were previously spare not running to / from London via Chelmsford.

Hauled sets are subject to severe penalties over the Norwich to Ely section due to Sprinter differentials - as much as 40/75 in places.

Hauled sets are too slow along that line, the timings of the football train that run from Norwich to Peterborough a couple of years ago for the cup match proved that

Also slam door stock cant stop at Thetford
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I have just done a check using two random days for a return from Liverpool Lime Street to Norwich.
I chose for the outward journey 21/01/2016 and found a single with a SENIOR Railcard on the 1047 for £21.80.
The return from Norwich on 26/01/2016 on the 0900 is £17.50 making a total of £39.30. When I did the journey back in 2013 I think it was about £37 for the same journey.
Now as LIV-NRW is probably twice the distance of NOT-NRW perhaps the further that you go the cheaper it gets!

Split tickets at Nottingham used to be a cheaper option when I last checked a year ago, although I was going to Manchester, think adv single to Nottingham and return to Ely then a walk up ticket from Nottingham to Manchester worked out cheaper