Liverpool to Norwich - Direct Services

[northwichcat]

Seriously though, what's the restriction preventing a third fast train along the hope valley ? Is it Dore-Sheffield or Picadilly-Levenshulme ? Are we starting to reach the stage where London Bridge type solutions are required, ie fly unders/overs or could the signalling be improved ? Or just, we need HS2 so we can remove the 390's

At present no extra trains can be booked to run between Slade Lane Junction and Piccadilly at peak times. New paths will be created as a result of TPE services going to Victoria and services using the Ordsall Chord those paths are going to used to provide additional services to Macclesfield, Greenbank and Hazel Grove/New Mills Newtown, as well as more destinations to have direct Airport services such as stations on the Calder Vale line.

 

[ashworth]

If the main problem stopping the increase in capacity between Sheffield and Manchester is between Stockport and Manchester Picadilly is there room for an extra train each hour along the Hope Valley and running into Manchester Picadilly via Romiey? If this terminated at Picadilly it wouldn't cause the problems of having to cross over to the through platforms.
This could either run non stop Sheffield to Manchester to provide a fast service or it could perhaps stop at a few of the busier intermediate stations like Dore and Chinley.

 

[Haydn1971]

is there room for an extra train each hour along the Hope Valley and running into Manchester Picadilly via Romiey? If this terminated at Picadilly it wouldn't cause the problems of having to cross over to the through platforms.

Does the 5am (ish) TPE service from Sheffield still do this route ?

This could either run non stop Sheffield to Manchester to provide a fast service or it could perhaps stop at a few of the busier intermediate stations like Dore and Chinley.

I've a feeling there's actually more services running via Romiley hourly than via Hazel Grove, but it could help if the restriction is actually around Stockport - the Hope Valley trains have to cross the southern mouth of Stockport.

 

[northwichcat]

I've a feeling there's actually more services running via Romiley hourly than via Hazel Grove, but it could help if the restriction is actually around Stockport - the Hope Valley trains have to cross the southern mouth of Stockport.

Given it's possible at peak times for services to run Chester to Stockport and then either Stockport to Denton to Newton Heath (ECS) or Stockport to Hazel Grove (ECS) or the reverse in the evening peak, paths seems to be more plentiful around Stockport than further North.

 

[robbeech]

There is a 158 knocking around that has come from South West Trains - which is a far more pleasant train than anything EMT has!

I didn't think it was too bad.
I only did Nottingham to Mansfield on it and i had only gone on it and left my car in the park and ride as i was likely still over the limit from the previous night and needed to do some work. So i likely wasn't in the best frame of mind to judge but it was certainly better than the 156's and the odd 158 that you normally get on that Nottingham to Worksop line.

My favourite part of the 158 over the 156 is the noise. Or rather lack of. We all like to hear trains, they can sound wonderful, but not for a long journey, but the difference inside between them is massive, the 158 is considerably quieter.

Rob

 

[Class 170101]

Don't forget the new 1 TPH Wisbech - Cambridge and ditto Wisbech - Peterborough trains.

Stock? Paths? Crews? Revenues? Don't worry, it's been suggested here, so must work. Merry Christmas

Lets hear your ideas then rather than criticising others.

As for pathing subject to the signalling Ely to Peterborough would carry the same number of passenger trains as the NLL off peak. Wisbeach I cannot see happening anytime soon.

 

[Jonny]

I think the best option is to split the route, but with some overlapping splits. W>E split Liverpool to Manchester, possibility overlapping to Sheffield, and part of the Northern franchise. Manchester to Nottingham via Sheffield (EMT franchise). (Overlap) Sheffield to Grantham via Nottingham on the current route, then on to Peterborough but possibility via Sleaford to avoid ECML conflicts and reduce knock-on issues, with a possible overlap to Ely and maybe extending to Cambridge to provide extra network connectivity (EMT franchise). Finally, have Peterborough to Norwich and use it as an excuse to send more DMUs to Anglia franchise (which would take that bit).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why? The present service seems to work quite well. What would work even better would be to send some 158 middle cars EMT's way to allow west of Notts to be 5 car. I think that would be pretty much spot on in terms of capacity.

 

[Jonny]

If the main problem stopping the increase in capacity between Sheffield and Manchester is between Stockport and Manchester Picadilly is there room for an extra train each hour along the Hope Valley and running into Manchester Picadilly via Romiey? If this terminated at Picadilly it wouldn't cause the problems of having to cross over to the through platforms.
This could either run non stop Sheffield to Manchester to provide a fast service or it could perhaps stop at a few of the busier intermediate stations like Dore and Chinley.

It could even be from Victoria, via the Phillips Park line to Ashburys. The trouble with starting that from Liverpool and running via the CLC line through Warrington Central is that it would need to reverse twice (under current arrangements) or once after the Ordsall Chord has opened, or be re-routed over Chat Moss (subject to pathing).

 

[childwallblues]

The Hope Valley has low-capacity signalling and poor connections at either end. It also has enough freight to cause pathing problems.
The eastern end is due to be upgraded during MML electrification, with Dore redoubling and a freight loop, but there are no plans for the western end.
Through trains to Liverpool have to go via Stockport - the Romiley route is OK for Piccadilly but NR are not going to let through trains go that way and repeat the TP North problems the Ordsall Chord is being built to solve.
The CLC has no proper overtaking capability at the obvious point (Warrington), and the Chat Moss is getting full.
Also, I would have thought TP South has a stronger call for an extra Hope Valley path than EMT, or even an extra Northern stopper to make an hourly service.

The only place on the CLC were trains can overtake is the loop between Irlam and Glazebrook and that is west bound only.

 

[dk1]

Sheffield to Grantham via Nottingham on the current route, then on to Peterborough but possibility via Sleaford to avoid ECML conflicts and reduce knock-on issues

Seriously? You've just doubled Not-Pbo journey time simply because of conflicts on ECML which are more often than not caused by late running VTEC, FHT & GC & not the reliable EMT service.

Why if you really had to divert would you not go via Melton Mowbray?

 

[lejog]

It could even be from Victoria, via the Phillips Park line to Ashburys. The trouble with starting that from Liverpool and running via the CLC line through Warrington Central is that it would need to reverse twice (under current arrangements) or once after the Ordsall Chord has opened, or be re-routed over Chat Moss (subject to pathing).

The new Northern Rail franchise maps indeed show some of the Hope Valley stoppers routed through to Victoria via Ashburys.

 

[northwichcat]

The new Northern Rail franchise maps indeed show some of the Hope Valley stoppers routed through to Victoria via Ashburys.

It actually has a dotted line to both and a solid line between Ashburys and Sheffield. The accompanying text doesn't say anything about services going to Victoria so possibly it's just an option available if pathing all services in to Piccadilly proves to be too difficult or possibly it'll be a temporary change to free up some paths in to Piccadilly ahead of the Ordsall Chord being opened?

 

[Welshman]

Why if you really had to divert would you not go via Melton Mowbray?

I seem to remember that when this service was introduced and running hourly between Liverpool and Norwich it did indeed run via Melton Mowbray, to avoid congestion on the ECML and crossing it twice at Grantham and Peterborough.

Then, as the ECML became even busier, it was diverted via Grantham!

I never really saw the logic of that, seeing as there was already a service from Nottingham to Grantham and Grantham to Peterborough.

 

[Class 170101]

There is a time penalty running via Melton Mowbray.

Usually when its done for weekend engineering works the route is split at Nottingham.

 

[lejog]

It actually has a dotted line to both and a solid line between Ashburys and Sheffield. The accompanying text doesn't say anything about services going to Victoria so possibly it's just an option available if pathing all services in to Piccadilly proves to be too difficult or possibly it'll be a temporary change to free up some paths in to Piccadilly ahead of the Ordsall Chord being opened?

Possibly but dotted lines on other routes e.g. Chester to Leeds via Bradford and Dewsbury are identified in the text as running part of the day (although in this case the text is shown on the Bradford map!).

 

[kevconnor]

It actually has a dotted line to both and a solid line between Ashburys and Sheffield. The accompanying text doesn't say anything about services going to Victoria so possibly it's just an option available if pathing all services in to Piccadilly proves to be too difficult or possibly it'll be a temporary change to free up some paths in to Piccadilly ahead of the Ordsall Chord being opened?

Do I recall reading correctly somewhere that before passenger services could run over the Philips park line it would need a signalling upgrade?

 

[dk1]

There is a time penalty running via Melton Mowbray.

Usually when its done for weekend engineering works the route is split at Nottingham.

Exactly. But nothing compared to running via Sleaford which is why I made the comment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I seem to remember that when this service was introduced and running hourly between Liverpool and Norwich it did indeed run via Melton Mowbray, to avoid congestion on the ECML and crossing it twice at Grantham and Peterborough.

Then, as the ECML became even busier, it was diverted via Grantham!

I never really saw the logic of that, seeing as there was already a service from Nottingham to Grantham and Grantham to Peterborough.

You are correct. Even now certain services do traverse this route but go back a few years & trains like the 13:00 & 13:54 ex-Norwich where booked this way & called at Loughborough which was particularly popular Friday's/Sunday's thanks to the University.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

This is how it looks when I travel:

Sheffield - Nottingham = 4 coaches = 70% full
Nottingham - Grantham = 2 coaches = 60% full
Grantham - Peterborough = 2 coaches = 30% full
Peterborough - Ely = 2 coaches = 60% full, if it stops at March, it can get 80% full for one stop.
Ely - Norwich = 2 coaches = 50% full (based on what I see boarding/alighting).

I travel from Nottingham eastwards on this service occasionally and would agree with those figures. The 07.52 from Nottingham often leaves Grantham with single figures in a carriage. If I return on the c17.54 departure from Norwich I'm always amazed at the number of free (double) seats at what is rush hour....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I honestly think you are catching some of the very least loaded services possible, if I travel off peak in the morning from Norwich the 2 car 158 is often 3/4 full leaving Norwich, picking up more on the way and not really thinning out until Peterborough. Lots of (used) seat reservations too.

It's quieter in the later afternoon departures but still at least 1/2 full.

From your comments it appears that heavy flows are FROM East Anglia in the morning and back in the afternoon. The route obviously doesn't get the heavy flows from Nottingham eastwards until later in the day as we see light loads in the mornings.

 

[70014IronDuke]

......

Even now certain services do traverse this route but go back a few years & trains like the 13:00 & 13:54 ex-Norwich where booked this way & called at Loughborough which was particularly popular Friday's/Sunday's thanks to the University.

That's interesting, because I remember reading/hearing exactly the opposite. IRRC, in the early 90s at least half, maybe more, of the trains ran via Loughborough, and BR expected the student population there to be a decent source of revenue, but this did not work out. hence the effort to route via Grantham and save the 15 mins.

In the early days (1990?) one or two evening trains were routed via Derby and stopped at Belper too - as the Pancras - Leeds services meant they were not needed for the Notts - Sheffield stations.

 

[dk1]

That's interesting, because I remember reading/hearing exactly the opposite. IRRC, in the early 90s at least half, maybe more, of the trains ran via Loughborough, and BR expected the student population there to be a decent source of revenue, but this did not work out. hence the effort to route via Grantham and save the 15 mins.

In the early days (1990?) one or two evening trains were routed via Derby and stopped at Belper too - as the Pancras - Leeds services meant they were not needed for the Notts - Sheffield stations.

I think it was just around weekends that Loughborough was of any use & most of the week loadings disappointed.

There used to be peak services that called Derby but avoided Sheffield. Seem to recall at those times there was something like a Nottingham-Blackpool that did the honours for Alfreton/Langley Mill/Sheffield.

 

[dquebec]

Sending the service via Loughborough would definitely be useful. It is quite frequent to be delayed at Grantham waiting access on to the ECML for multiple late running north and southbound services.

As for the journey time "increase", I wouldn't think so really, at the moment, the Norwich trains generally have 8-10 minutes at Nottingham to split, and many also trains have a 5 minute wait at Grantham, presumably waiting for a slot on to the ECML.

I think regardless of the route you take, journey times will be the same.

The only problem is it is yet another reversal at Nottingham, although I believe there is a route out of Sheffield which can be taken to avoid a reversal there.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Sending the service via Loughborough would definitely be useful. It is quite frequent to be delayed at Grantham waiting access on to the ECML for multiple late running north and southbound services.

As for the journey time "increase", I wouldn't think so really, at the moment, the Norwich trains generally have 8-10 minutes at Nottingham to split, and many also trains have a 5 minute wait at Grantham, presumably waiting for a slot on to the ECML.

I think regardless of the route you take, journey times will be the same.

The only problem is it is yet another reversal at Nottingham, although I believe there is a route out of Sheffield which can be taken to avoid a reversal there.

The significant disadvantage would be loss of seats between Nottingham & Grantham. I always try to use the Norwich for that journey as the Skegness gets ridiculously overcrowded at times. The Norwich also provides some essential journeys at peak times between the Grantham & Nottingham including intermediate stops viz 0758 & 1857 ex Grantham & 1734 return.

I personally would like to see say a 2hourly Nottingham-Beeston-Loughborough-Barrow-Sileby-Melton-Oakham then either Stamford & Peterborough or possibly Corby using a sprinter. If going to Peterborough link it up with the Ipswich. Pigs might fly....

 

[dquebec]

The significant disadvantage would be loss of seats between Nottingham & Grantham. I always try to use the Norwich for that journey as the Skegness gets ridiculously overcrowded at times. The Norwich also provides some essential journeys at peak times between the Grantham & Nottingham including intermediate stops viz 0758 & 1857 ex Grantham & 1734 return.

I personally would like to see say a 2hourly Nottingham-Beeston-Loughborough-Barrow-Sileby-Melton-Oakham then either Stamford & Peterborough or possibly Corby using a sprinter. If going to Peterborough link it up with the Ipswich. Pigs might fly....

This Liverpool-Norwich service shouldn't really be calling at these minor stations, the 0550 from Norwich calls at Bottesford, Bingham, Aslockton, Radcliffe and Netherfield!

Running a 2-hourly Class 153 between Nottingham and Grantham's bay platform would be far more useful in my opinion and would give the intermediate stations a better service... The Skegness can continue to pick up at these minor stations too.

 

[Haydn1971]

This Liverpool-Norwich service shouldn't really be calling at these minor stations, the 0550 from Norwich calls at Bottesford, Bingham, Aslockton, Radcliffe and Netherfield!

Without such calls, many small stations wouldn't be fit for getting workers to major employment centres for a reasonable start at work

 

[dosxuk]

There's a lot of suppressed demand on the eastern end of the route, simply because of the lack of rolling stock. Central actual admitted in the press in the early 00's that they had had to raise ticket prices to lower the demand.

I'm travelling Norwich to Sheffield tomorrow. It's cheaper for me to go via London. And having had to stand for the entire reverse journey in the past, I'm quite happy that I know I'll definitely find a seat by going the slightly longer route.

If the prices were more equal, and the trains not packed to the rafters, I'd certainly choose to use the direct train. But until we get some new stock that isn't likely to happen. I've said before, I'd like to see new 5 car trains, with a small first class section used along the entire route. Some promotion and offers would soon see the number of passengers on the Norwich end fill far more than the current 2 car offering could support.

 

[dquebec]

There's a lot of suppressed demand on the eastern end of the route, simply because of the lack of rolling stock. Central actual admitted in the press in the early 00's that they had had to raise ticket prices to lower the demand.

I'm travelling Norwich to Sheffield tomorrow. It's cheaper for me to go via London. And having had to stand for the entire reverse journey in the past, I'm quite happy that I know I'll definitely find a seat by going the slightly longer route.

If the prices were more equal, and the trains not packed to the rafters, I'd certainly choose to use the direct train. But until we get some new stock that isn't likely to happen. I've said before, I'd like to see new 5 car trains, with a small first class section used along the entire route. Some promotion and offers would soon see the number of passengers on the Norwich end fill far more than the current 2 car offering could support.

There is sparse demand on the Eastern Side, which is why trains are only 2-coaches with plenty of seats available, save for 2/3 trains in the peak hours.

I don't think advertising is going to create much additional demand, because you are advertising a pretty basic and slow service, with quite high fares.

Having read what people on here have written, it is essentially a few different routes, simply joined together for operational convenience.

End to end, it's a pretty poor cross-country service, but conversely, it's a pretty good service to connect in to/out of.

The real demand is all between Nottingham-Liverpool. Norwich needs better links to Birmingham and the West Midlands, not the North West of England.

 

[CockneySparrow]

I generally find that the services from Norwich, to Peterborough, at least, are generally full with little spare seating. It would not be a popular decision in Norfolk to loose an hourly return service on the Breckland Line or see Norwich loose their direct train to Nottingham, Manchester etc.

Indeed, alot of people use the service to get to Nottingham, Manchester and Liverpool, to change it would make the service unattractive
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly. But nothing compared to running via Sleaford which is why I made the comment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You are correct. Even now certain services do traverse this route but go back a few years & trains like the 13:00 & 13:54 ex-Norwich where booked this way & called at Loughborough which was particularly popular Friday's/Sunday's thanks to the University.

First couple of trains each day from Nottingham do this route

 

[chubs]

There is sparse demand on the Eastern Side, which is why trains are only 2-coaches with plenty of seats available, save for 2/3 trains in the peak hours.

There really is demand, several people who live here have stated that many trains departing Norwich are very full. One person stated they weren't but was always travelling the other way. Many other opinions that it is empty from people who don't use the service at all

It's only 2 carriages east as there simply aren't enough 158's to run every diagram as a 4 carriage train.

I also agree they could fill more seats, a lot of people go via London now to Sheffield or Manchester as it is roughly the same time, often cheaper and more comfortable trains.

 

[dquebec]

There really is demand, several people who live here have stated that many trains departing Norwich are very full. One person stated they weren't but was always travelling the other way. Many other opinions that it is empty from people who don't use the service at all

It's only 2 carriages east as there simply aren't enough 158's to run every diagram as a 4 carriage train.

I also agree they could fill more seats, a lot of people go via London now to Sheffield or Manchester as it is roughly the same time, often cheaper and more comfortable trains.

I use them regularly - 1 coach would be sufficient between 11:00-16:00, i.e. the daytime. The busy services are people connecting into longer journeys at Peterborough, so early morning from Norwich, late evening services to Norwich.