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Liverpool to Hull direct train from December 2022

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JonathanH

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Do TPE have their own depots at York and Ardwick (although may be a challenge to get them west of the Pennines owing to a lack of wires)?

I was always under the impression that Craigentinny is for InterCity East Coast (LNER).
No, York and Ardwick are Siemens depots. Craigentinny is an Hitachi depot.

There is a facility at Heaton that can do overnight servicing the TPE 802s but the big work has to be done at either Doncaster or Craigentinny. The arrangement is for some 802 to work to be done at each location alongside the LNER work.

The growing trend, supported by government policy, is for train operators not to have their own depots.
 
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ainsworth74

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Do TPE have their own depots at York and Ardwick (although may be a challenge to get them west of the Pennines owing to a lack of wires)?

I was always under the impression that Craigentinny is for InterCity East Coast (LNER).

Craigentinny is a now a Hitachi depot (has been for a few years) which looks after 80x class vehicles and a few other odds and ends (XC 22xs hang out there overnight from time to time). TPE (or more accurately Siemens) do have depots at York and Ardwick and I believe their 802s do spend time there but those don't provide their maintenance just servicing I believe.
 

JonathanH

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TPE (or more accurately Siemens) do have depots at York and Ardwick and I believe their 802s do spend time there but those don't provide their maintenance just servicing I believe.
The two York 802 finishers go to Doncaster for servicing. I dont think Siemens touch them.
 

ainsworth74

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The two York 802 finishers go to Doncaster for servicing. I dont think Siemens touch them.
Ah fair enough. Could have sworn I'd seen an 802 in York but perhaps that was just to get them out the way or my eyes playing tricks!
 

Asmo

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Interesting idea, would they still use 185s or some of the spare 802s to take advantage of the sections of electrification around Manchester?
It would be strategically important to see the 802s assigned to the Liverpool to Hull route as the use of TPE bimodes would further reinforce the case of electrification of the Hull to Selby/ Templehurst Junction line together with those from Hull Trains on the KX route. Interestingly TfN has written an open letter to the Transport Secretary responding to the IRP making a further case for the electrification of the line as one of the tenets for further discussion with the DfT. As Mollman flags such a case would take advantage of the electrified sections of the TPU in the short term and establish and East to West electrified spine for the North in the hopefully not too longer term.
 
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Starmill

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The colour of the trains doesn't really matter. The calling pattern does, but until TRU (and NPR) are complete, the only way to deliver a 2tph service at the local stations between Manchester and Huddersfield is to add the calls into one of the 'express' services.

Unfortunately whether that express is a Hull or Scarborough service, someone is going to complain. But I would argue Scarborough is probably the 'least worst' as SCA-MAN is a smaller flow than HUL-MAN. It'll also be good to have 2tph direct from Piccadilly to York, albeit they are unlikely to be particularly clockface.

Gatley is a separate issue, but suffice it to say the train would take that length of time to get to Manchester Airport one way or the other, so it may as well call and improve local connectivity.
To be fair none of this is particularly difficult to solve from a schedule perspective. For example:

Scarborough - Blackpool North via Burnley Manchester Road
Saltburn - Manchester Airport via Manchester Oxford Road

Newcastle - Liverpool Lime Street via Manchester Victoria
Hull - Liverpool Lime Street via Manchester Victoria

Leeds - Manchester Piccadilly stopping service
Huddersfield - Manchester Piccadilly stopping service

That would show a connectivity benefit, a reliability benefit and deliver 2tph all day at the stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield.

The trouble is that current rolling stock, although there's arguably rather too much of it, simply cannot be rearranged to make something like that work.

It would also have some negative capacity implications and journey time implications in that no trains would be able to skip Dewsbury any longer. But still.
 
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Do TPE have their own depots at York and Ardwick (although may be a challenge to get them west of the Pennines owing to a lack of wires)?

I was always under the impression that Craigentinny is for InterCity East Coast (LNER).
The depots at York + Ardwick are Siemens specific, can't take 802s (or Mk5as/397s for that matter)

Hence the Craigentinny rotations, Heaton is also used I believe.
 

Watershed

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The depots at York + Ardwick are Siemens specific, can't take 802s (or Mk5as/397s for that matter)
York did take 802s and Mk5s for a brief period, but they won't be returning.
 

LittleAH

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Forget Lea Green, Dewsbury, Newton-le-Willows, Malton. A proper Intercity Newcastle/York to Manchester/Liverpool service should not be calling at those stations. My proposal would be 2tph Calling only at Newcastle, (1tph) Durham, Darlington, York (starting there 1tph) Leeds, Huddersfield, Man Vic, Liverpool (Or 1tph Liverpool, 1tph Man Pic into low number platforms via Guide Bridge). What could they accomodate? The remaining 2tph at 5/6 cars would become semi-fasts picking up the intermediate stations.
It's alright putting forward proposals, but that doesn't take into account the reality of capacity. Certainly post TRU and whatever NPR gives us, there is likely to be those fast IC services across the North, but until then you have to work with what's available. This is why Hull got the short straw picking up local stoppers as the previous 7tph between Huddersfield and Manchester wasn't viable for a reliable railway. I'm sure those in Hull are now delighted with this consultation.

Also, for example, stopping the Newcastle - Liverpool services at Newton-le-Willows allows the railway to efficiently manage capacity as otherwise that service would catch up the stopping services ahead by Edge Hill and trundle into Liverpool at a similar time and give that location a better service. Win, win.
All Manchester Airport platforms are at least 200m. So could accomodate 7x26m (80x variant), 7x23m+20m (7xMk5a+68) or 8x24m (lengthened 397).
Should've caveated with current rolling stock. But only 3 platforms can and unless there's new rolling stock procured, and MIA will still remain a bottleneck.
 

Mag_seven

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A reminder that the topic of this thread is Liverpool to Hull direct train from December 2022.

If anyone wants talk about anything else then please start a new thread in the relevant forum section.

thanks :)
 

modernrail

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Not sure it really makes sense to be going from anywhere in the North West to Edinburgh via Leeds & York. Edinburgh's actually west of Liverpool (just about). If the North West-Scotland services are inadequate than it's best to work on improving those. Perhaps more Liverpool-Scotland services, for instance.
This has blown my mind. Also west of Bristol I have just discovered.
 

mike57

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Not sure it really makes sense to be going from anywhere in the North West to Edinburgh via Leeds & York. Edinburgh's actually west of Liverpool (just about). If the North West-Scotland services are inadequate than it's best to work on improving those. Perhaps more Liverpool-Scotland services, for instance.
Really the only significant places to benefit from these direct to Edinburgh via ECML services are Huddersfield and Dewsbury, and saving is about 15 mins, based on fastest journeys, and 1 change. From Manchester and Liverpool you get a quicker journey via WCML.

TPE should really be concentrating their efforts and resources on the main trans pennine route, i.e. Newcastle, Hull, York, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool. Scarborough is currently a shuttle, and I have changed my view on that as the improvement in reliability by it being a shuttle outweighs the convenience of through services (Not looking forward to the resumption of through services, no doubt reliability will plummet again). That leaves Middlesboro' which I suspect is tacked on to TPE because there is no capacity at York to easily terminate trains from the North there.
 

childwallblues

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No, York and Ardwick are Siemens depots. Craigentinny is an Hitachi depot.

There is a facility at Heaton that can do overnight servicing the TPE 802s but the big work has to be done at either Doncaster or Craigentinny. The arrangement is for some 802 to work to be done at each location alongside the LNER work.

The growing trend, supported by government policy, is for train operators not to have their own depots.
802s also stable at Edge Hill overnight which ia an Alstom Depot.
 

frodshamfella

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More people from Liverpool would probably use a through train to Newcastle than any of the other places, that's true but with 2tph to Newcastle seemingly not on the agenda, Hull probably makes sense.
Agreed, I reckon a coast to coast Liverpool to Hull, is a good idea.
 

LittleAH

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From Manchester and Liverpool you get a quicker journey via WCML.
That may well be the case, but the capacity on the WCML isn't there for frequent direct services. As is evident every weekend on the WCML, those services are popular and overcrowding is an issue and hard to solve given capacity constraints south of Preston.
TPE should really be concentrating their efforts and resources on the main trans pennine route. That leaves Middlesboro' which I suspect is tacked on to TPE because there is no capacity at York to easily terminate trains from the North there.
Why shouldn't Middlesbrough have a direct train to Leeds/Manchester? Teesside, as a whole region, has a population circa 600k and Middlesbrough a population of 140k. This argument is why those in Hull have been saying they've drawn a short straw for years - you can't do that to a large populated area for that sake of it.
 
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