Liverpool Lime St remodelling

[notlob.divad]

May I ask what the purpose of the 2 parallel turnouts between the throat header and the down slow are for. I could understand 1, or 2 if they allowed parallel opposing moves from 5/6 to up slow and from down slow to the South Shed. But it doesn't allow for that so 1 of them seems pointless (sorry for the pun).

From what I saw from the network rail published 3d model views, platform 2/3 when extended is going to go all the way to the single track tunnel on the up slow. Basically meaning with 1 cut off, arrivals and departures from 2 will be the only on to use that section of single tunnel.

I'm really confused as it appears from what i remember of Phil's old layout, that extra flexibility has been added to platform 1, the one that is going to be removed.

 

[xtradj]

May I ask what the purpose of the 2 parallel turnouts between the throat header and the down slow are for. I could understand 1, or 2 if they allowed parallel opposing moves from 5/6 to up slow and from down slow to the South Shed. But it doesn't allow for that so 1 of them seems pointless (sorry for the pun).

From what I saw from the network rail published 3d model views, platform 2/3 when extended is going to go all the way to the single track tunnel on the up slow. Basically meaning with 1 cut off, arrivals and departures from 2 will be the only on to use that section of single tunnel.

I'm really confused as it appears from what i remember of Phil's old layout, that extra flexibility has been added to platform 1, the one that is going to be removed.

So they are creating two new platforms but removing one? (Therefore one new platform) ?

 

[Starmill]

I also don't quite follow what's going to happen with platform one.

 

[driver_m]

What is now 2 and 3 are going to be stretched to the first tunnel to fit an 11 car pendo on them. As a result platform 1 will be made redundant. I personally don't know why they can't do something similar to platform 9 at man picc where 10-12 are accessed via the start of 9, either cost or standards I guess are stopping this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The new starting signals for P1/2 were more temporary than I thought.
They are bagged over already!
Presumably all that will be ripped out when the P1-3 remodelling takes place.

 

[nw-sparks]

May 2018 is when the ROC takes over. On a Wednesday strangely.

I've got next year's blockade as June and July, has that changed?

 

[notlob.divad]

I'm really confused as it appears from what i remember of Phil's old layout, that extra flexibility has been added to platform 1, the one that is going to be removed.

Sorry for my brain freeze, the photo's clear this point, as the area hasn't been touches apart from the temporary crossover.

I am still interested in the layout around the throat siding and if that is going to change further at the next blockade.

 

[driver_m]

I've got next year's blockade as June and July, has that changed?

It's in the Weekly ops notices as May. That may be elsewhere on the route though. I'd have to have another look at it,. One other bit to tell you. Signals will be labelled LL or WE dependant on section of line.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the NR* twitter feed is a link to a photo in the St Helens Star, about the recent upgrade. http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/NEWS/..._open___after_23_day_transformation/#gallery0
It's an impressive view of the new Lime St with a remarkable line up of stock.
Including what appears to be a TPE AT300 unit... [or more likely a CAF 397].
So it's a futuristic artist's impression, not a record of the recent work (which leaves 3 platforms incomplete/out of use).
It's a bit cheeky to pretend that the whole job is finished, when there's a whole year to go before the final version will be ready.
Incidently, I doubt we will ever get a line-up like that, as by the time the AT300s appear, the 350 will be in Abellio's livery.
Even the 390 and 158 might have changed hands...


PS *Actually it's not from the NR twitter feed, it's from HSR Industry Leaders, which I found on Nigel Harris's feed. https://twitter.com/RAIL

 

[notlob.divad]

That picture has been around fro a while. It was on this link in the summer.
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...-move-during-lime-street-upgrade-this-autumn/
At the time the WM franchise was still up for grabs.

It is not a bad sight of what the future might be, but it does look like someone having a little dig at Northern including a 156? when they could have point an impression of the new CAF DMU or even, a 319 would have been better.

I also think it unlikely that the AT300 will regularly be in that platform. TPE will use the Chat Moss route for most (all?) of their services and so I expect them to be appearing in the North Shed more frequently.

 

[fowler9]

Had an interesting first trip in to Lime Street today following the re opening. Clearly a lot of work has been done which sadly won't be immediately obvious to local travelers who's travel is still sadly being disrupted by a few issues. I get the impression some people were expecting brand new trains and for the station to look like Chek Lap Kok airport after a three week closure.

 

[mallard]

Incidently, I doubt we will ever get a line-up like that, as by the time the AT300s appear, the 350 will be in Abellio's livery.
Even the 390 and 158 might have changed hands...
View attachment 35981

Also, that's an SWT livery on the "158" (the EMT livery does not extend onto the roof like that) and it appears to be 4 carriages long without intermediate cabs...

 

[nw-sparks]

I've now added my best guess at the planned final layout to my website, at http://charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/livesig/12

 

[Ploughman]

Is there no direct link from the Bootle branch to the Main lines?
Do all freights need to reverse and head out on the Huyton lines?
Has this always been the case?

 

[nw-sparks]

Is there no direct link from the Bootle branch to the Main lines?
Do all freights need to reverse and head out on the Huyton lines?
Has this always been the case?

I don't think there has never been a connection from the Bootle lines to the main lines. Trains must reverse if they wish to run down to Allerton. Of course there is a direct route to the Chat Moss lines over the re-instated Olive Mount Chord.

 

[Francis]

Correct. Have a look at railmaponline.com which is excellent for showing detail of rail lines superimposed upon Google maps. Shows all the one-time complex of lines around Edge Hill in great detail.

 

[xtradj]

I've now added my best guess at the planned final layout to my website, at http://charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/livesig/12

Really enjoyed that pal. You've probably been asked a lot.. however do you have a sig diagram from Edge Lane to South Parkway and beyond (Warrington Central/Runcorn) etc?

 

[nw-sparks]

Really enjoyed that pal. You've probably been asked a lot.. however do you have a sig diagram from Edge Lane to South Parkway and beyond (Warrington Central/Runcorn) etc?

In a word, no, I'm afraid.

I recommend railcam.uk who have these diagrams for large areas of the country, including the route you mention. You need to be a supporter to see them. Some of the behind-the scenes software is mine, but I don't have much involvement with drawing the diagrams. (I see the Liverpool diagram has been re-drawn to reflect the current layout.)

Phil

 

[Freightmaster]

I recommend railcam.uk who have these diagrams for large areas of the country,
including the route you mention...

Railcam is very much a team effort, with maps being drawn/updated by people with knowledge
of the area(s) in question. It just so happens that the Liverpool diagram is one that I created
from scratch, so I am also responsible for updating it with layout/signalling changes as they occur.

...to South Parkway and beyond (Warrington Central/Runcorn) etc?

The Railcam Liverpool map does indeed cover those routes, although there is a 'gap' in the
Network Rail Train Describer coverage in the Halewood area, and on the down line between
Weaver Junction and Runcorn, but of course that should be fixed with resignalling next year!

I should stress that the work I do for Railcam is entirely voluntary - I receive no payments
or commission of any kind, so for once I'm not being mercenary!


MARK

 

[takno]

Really enjoyed that pal. You've probably been asked a lot.. however do you have a sig diagram from Edge Lane to South Parkway and beyond (Warrington Central/Runcorn) etc?

traksy.uk has live maps of pretty much anywhere in the country that can be covered.

 

[louis97]

What is now 2 and 3 are going to be stretched to the first tunnel to fit an 11 car pendo on them. As a result platform 1 will be made redundant. I personally don't know why they can't do something similar to platform 9 at man picc where 10-12 are accessed via the start of 9, either cost or standards I guess are stopping this.

Not totally true, the final platform lengths see platforms 6, 9 and 10 long enough for 11 car 390s. That's what are/were platforms 7, 8 and 9. The new platforms 1 and 2 will only be long enough for a 9 car 390.

 

[adam9413]

Not totally true, the final platform lengths see platforms 6, 9 and 10 long enough for 11 car 390s. That's what are/were platforms 7, 8 and 9. The new platforms 1 and 2 will only be long enough for a 9 car 390.

Any idea what the main reason for the extending these platforms is? The current platform 2 is just over 160m so is tight for 2 x 319.

I remember reading that the extensions were for 390s diverted over Chat Moss but this seems unlikely if only 9 car variants fit.

 

[driver_m]

Not totally true, the final platform lengths see platforms 6, 9 and 10 long enough for 11 car 390s. That's what are/were platforms 7, 8 and 9. The new platforms 1 and 2 will only be long enough for a 9 car 390.

That's what we've been told at work. That the new 2 and 3 will fit all pendos. Also that what will be pl9 (8 now) won't fit an 11 car. We haven't been able to go in 8 with 11 cars ever since the platform was cut back to allow the digging out of the new platforms.

 

[notlob.divad]

That's what we've been told at work. That the new 2 and 3 will fit all pendos. Also that what will be pl9 (8 now) won't fit an 11 car. We haven't been able to go in 8 with 11 cars ever since the platform was cut back to allow the digging out of the new platforms.

By my (very) rough measurements, to get an 11 car pendolino (265.3m) on the current Platforms 2 and 3, before the first tunnel on the up slow (under Cooperas Hill), it would have to start in Boots the chemist. However a 9 car one will fit from the current buffer stop position.

What I think more likely, and more importantly on these platforms my again (very vey) rough measurements indicate you may be able to get a 5 car 802 with a 319 behind it. Or even potentially 3 of 319s. While this may seem strange reasoning, as none of the other local stations can take more than a single 319. However there is already a unit that runs 8 car (back locked out) from Wigan daily If this could then attach to a single 319 already in platform 2/3, a 12 car 319 may then be able to travel to/from Allerton depot empty under a single move.

These measurement's are very very very rough off arial photo's and maps, so don't hold me to any of the above. But it would make some sense to me rather than focussing on a Pendolino length. Originally the plan had been to run Pendolino's via Chat Moss during the blockade, however that plan was dropped, with the platform extension at South Parkway, maybe because they would have had to be 9 car. I am not saying what you have been told is wrong, but I find it difficult to work out how they would fit in.

 

[nw-sparks]

I found this on google streetview https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4061129,-2.9749653,127a,35y,45t/data=!3m1!1e3 which seems to show an 11 car pendolino in plaftform 7 and you can clearly see that if it was in new platform 1 (Currently 2) the front car would be well inside the "mousehole", so I'm sure your "rough measurements" are correct.

By the way, my understanding is that only the line from new platform 1 will pass through the mousehole and the single bore tunnel. (Anyone know the correct names of these tunnels?)
The line from platform 2(new) will run to the down slow via the four-track Russell Street Tunnel.
This means the platform for these two can be extended all the way to the mousehole entrance.

 

[louis97]

I found this on google streetview https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4061129,-2.9749653,127a,35y,45t/data=!3m1!1e3 which seems to show an 11 car pendolino in plaftform 7 and you can clearly see that if it was in new platform 1 (Currently 2) the front car would be well inside the "mousehole", so I'm sure your "rough measurements" are correct.

By the way, my understanding is that only the line from new platform 1 will pass through the mousehole and the single bore tunnel. (Anyone know the correct names of these tunnels?)
The line from platform 2(new) will run to the down slow via the four-track Russell Street Tunnel.

The single bore longer tunnel is called Lime Street Tunnel, not sure what the shorter one is called.

The new platform 2 will run onto the Up Slow line, the new platform 3 will run onto the Down Slow line. The line from the new Platform 1 joins the Up Slow line just after the coming out of Lime Street Tunnel.

Any train into Platform 1 will have to use the Up Chat Moss Slow line from the new junction at Crown Street.

 

[driver_m]

Must admit I have scratched my head at the plan for 2 and 3 over the length, but I just send them in the direction I'm pointed to! Maybe it's part of a longer term plan to get a second London out of lime st, going via St Helens & Warrington or to Picc. Who knows.. btw that's me assuming, not fact!!

 

[rebmcr]

Must admit I have scratched my head at the plan for 2 and 3 over the length, but I just send them in the direction I'm pointed to! Maybe it's part of a longer term plan to get a second London out of lime st, going via St Helens & Warrington or to Picc. Who knows.. btw that's me assuming, not fact!!

Maybe it wasn't "platforms 2-3" but actually "the 2-3 new platforms". If you're sure you heard right then maybe the upstream information was misheard before then.

 

[driver_m]

Maybe it wasn't "platforms 2-3" but actually "the 2-3 new platforms". If you're sure you heard right then maybe the upstream information was misheard before then.

No. I know what I heard. The same as others have said about the platform being extended upto lime st tunnel. (the single bore carrying the up slow)

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe it wasn't "platforms 2-3" but actually "the 2-3 new platforms". If you're sure you heard right then maybe the upstream information was misheard before then.

There is a 2015 presentation (which has been quoted before) online here:
https://www.slideshare.net/merseyrailways/merseytravel-committee-presentation-dec-2014

What is proposed on slide 11 is:

16-Jan-15
What is proposed
10 remodelled platforms and track
extend platforms 2 and 3 to allow for 8 car trains and Pendolino trains in times of perturbation
reduce and/or realign of platforms 4-6
create two new platforms between the existing platforms 7 and 8
extend platform 9
new signals, points and equipment
new signals controlled from Manchester ROC

The key point is possibly "in times of perturbation", so perhaps not suitable for normal timetabled use.