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Liverpool City Region-Bus Franchising

Djgr

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Are these correct? What I see on the Merseytravel website at https://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/travel-updates/bus-changes/new-tickets-and-prices/ is


Which to me says that tap and go (without capping) should be available now. If it's not, then that's an awful failure, but will it be long term or is it just transitional?
The way I read it is that when all the LCR borough franchises have commenced (which will be Autumn 2027) then Tap and Go will be introduced on the LCR Metro network.

Currently it is Autumn 2026 and only the St. Helens franchise has commenced and accordingly there is no Tap and Go.

This might be terminology though ?
To me, being able to pay by tapping a credit card is just business as usual and not really Tap and Go as usually considered.
 
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Fawkes Cat

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This might be terminology though ?
To me, being able to pay by tapping a credit card is just business as usual and not really Tap and Go as usually considered.
It could indeed be as simple as me not understanding what you mean by 'tap and go'. So please could you explain what it means, so that I learn something?
 

Tetchytyke

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It could indeed be as simple as me not understanding what you mean by 'tap and go'. So please could you explain what it means, so that I learn something?
Tap and go is what happens on the Arriva Merseyside non-franchise buses. You touch your card on the machine, it beeps, you sit down. No ticket is issued. The fare is calculated at the end of the day based on your journey history. Think how it works in London. Stagecoach don’t offer this.

In the hybrid world franchise buses don’t offer this either. You touch the machine once the driver has selected a ticket and you pay for it and get a ticket issued. The fare is settled there and then.

When the whole franchised system is operational they’ll go back to tap and go.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Tap and go is what happens on the Arriva Merseyside non-franchise buses. You touch your card on the machine, it beeps, you sit down. No ticket is issued. The fare is calculated at the end of the day based on your journey history. Think how it works in London. Stagecoach don’t offer this.

In the hybrid world franchise buses don’t offer this either. You touch the machine once the driver has selected a ticket and you pay for it and get a ticket issued. The fare is settled there and then.

When the whole franchised system is operational they’ll go back to tap and go.
Thanks. I think I understand now. So
There's (currently) no tap and go on the Merseytravel buses either which feels like we've gone back to the dark ages again
Is perhaps something of an overreaction to having to take a ticket when paying by card.
 

AB93

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Thanks. I think I understand now. So

Is perhaps something of an overreaction to having to take a ticket when paying by card.
Not if it's caused a significant increase in dwell time and therefore late running.
 

Djgr

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Not if it's caused a significant increase in dwell time and therefore late running.
A high % of bus users in LCR will be using MetroCards of various varieties, where no ticket is issued.
 

Tetchytyke

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Thanks. I think I understand now. So

Is perhaps something of an overreaction to having to take a ticket when paying by card.
The main consequence is that daily capping has gone. On non-franchised Arriva you just tap on and the system charges based on what you travel. Without tap-and-go there's no daily capping and so you have to commit in advance to a single or a day ticket.

First world problems, perhaps, but it's not a great look for the those used to the convenience of Arriva's daily capping.
 

johncrossley

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I guess the problem is that too many people will be changing between franchised and non-franchised buses at the moment, which is why capping isn't practical unless the other operators are brought into the system. They need to force operators working on a permit to accept capping within Merseyside to avoid the problem in Greater Manchester where a lot of cross-boundary routes don't accept capping or free interchange within one hour.
 

Djgr

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I guess the problem is that too many people will be changing between franchised and non-franchised buses at the moment, which is why capping isn't practical unless the other operators are brought into the system. They need to force operators working on a permit to accept capping within Merseyside to avoid the problem in Greater Manchester where a lot of cross-boundary routes don't accept capping or free interchange within one hour.
I guess the reality is that public transport authorities will always be focused on the core rather than out of area.
 

Fawkes Cat

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They need to force operators working on a permit to accept capping within Merseyside to avoid the problem in Greater Manchester where a lot of cross-boundary routes don't accept capping or free interchange within one hour.
I guess the reality is that public transport authorities will always be focused on the core rather than out of area.
Looking ahead, I can see a problem on the X2/47 corridor when Sefton comes into franchising. I assume (maybe wrongly) that the services will be scheduled to give roughly a 15 minute service rather than the current two buses in competition every half hour: but there would certainly be confusion if capping worked on the 47 but not the X2: if the confusion was enough to put people off the X2 then we're not really any better off in effective service frequency.
 

johncrossley

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What we need is a National Bus Company!

In the Netherlands they don't have a national bus company (any more) but they have a national ticketing system so changing from one operator to another can be done using a single smartcard.
 

Djgr

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Looking ahead, I can see a problem on the X2/47 corridor when Sefton comes into franchising. I assume (maybe wrongly) that the services will be scheduled to give roughly a 15 minute service rather than the current two buses in competition every half hour: but there would certainly be confusion if capping worked on the 47 but not the X2: if the confusion was enough to put people off the X2 then we're not really any better off in effective service frequency.
And there will be different issues where the touchpoint is between two different franchised areas (essentially LCR and TfGM) and non-franchised (i.e. Cheshire West, West Lancs).

Still the issues between England and Wales are greater (e.g. the price of a journey between Chester and Wrexham is different from a journey between Wrexham and Chester)
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I guess the reality is that public transport authorities will always be focused on the core rather than out of area.
The reality is that politicians (as they're the ones driving this) will be generally focussed on their patch and the electorate that controls their destiny!

What we need is a National Bus Company!
We had one - it was neither national nor very successful (but it did pay for my childhood).
 

Northerngirl

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I finally found this PDF which summarises the situation and it is confusing. MerseyTravel tickets are valid on the whole 320 route but only the Merseyside section of the 612. They are not valid on the 61 or 329 past the boundary into Warrington though but are valid into Warrington on the 322. They are valid on the whole 157 route as well which includes Ashton as well as the entirety of the 34 route all the way to Leigh.
That seems to match my experience the past couple of days, the 612 and 322 machines dont seem able to accept any saveaway/solo/concessionary but thr drivers looked at the card and let people on, so id guess they're getting the same information
 

Tetchytyke

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I finally found this PDF which summarises the situation and it is confusing. MerseyTravel tickets are valid on the whole 320 route but only the Merseyside section of the 612. They are not valid on the 61 or 329 past the boundary into Warrington though but are valid into Warrington on the 322.
That is similar to what happened over in Manchester. The franchise tickets are valid on the whole route of a franchised bus route, but are only valid in-area for routes operated by a non-franchised operator.

320 and 322 are Metro routes.

The others are non-Metro routes.
 

Bwsbro

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Does anyone know why the 329 was not added onto the Franchised list of routes - especially as the service was operated by St Helens Depot
 

urbophile

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Its seems a ridiculous situation why they are out of Merseytravel, Halton borders , Knowsley, Liverpool, St Helens, all part of the scheme.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Would it have been a good idea to bring the 'Merseybus' name back ? Its obviously means about ' buses ' and a bit more specific to the region than just ' metro ' which to me is rather bland, and could be anywhere.
Quite. And Metro in most people's minds refers to trains.
 

Djgr

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Quite. And Metro in most people's minds refers to trains.
Well in part because the overall idea is that public transport is public transport whether or not it runs on rails or has tyres. Bus and train are not in competition.
 

Statto

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Does anyone know why the 329 was not added onto the Franchised list of routes - especially as the service was operated by St Helens Depot

That is quite odd one considering a load of passengers use the 329 to Derbyshire Hill Road, as the 31 goes down a slightly different route via Fleet Lane.
 

Fokx

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Does anyone know why the 329 was not added onto the Franchised list of routes - especially as the service was operated by St Helens Depot
Because the majority of it operates outside of Merseyside and interworked with the 360 pre-franchise
 

JasonL

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Does anyone know why the 329 was not added onto the Franchised list of routes - especially as the service was operated by St Helens Depot
Because majority of the route is outside of Merseyside, Metro did not see the 329 fit to be part of franchising as well as the 360.
 

urbophile

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I think this is more appropriate
I don't know. If you go to most continental cities, or even Tyne and Wear in this country, Metro means trains. And not just to enthusiasts. More likely it is the latter who think of bus services in British cities as Metros. Maybe in West Yorkshire, where they seem to talk about the 'Metro' region in many contexts, they will think of buses too. But where else?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Well in part because the overall idea is that public transport is public transport whether or not it runs on rails or has tyres. Bus and train are not in competition.
Yes but it's a different mode. London has Buses, Underground, Overground etc. Same management, different modes. It's like saying 'I got the tube home' when in fact you came by bus.
 

Snex

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I don't know. If you go to most continental cities, or even Tyne and Wear in this country, Metro means trains. And not just to enthusiasts. More likely it is the latter who think of bus services in British cities as Metros. Maybe in West Yorkshire, where they seem to talk about the 'Metro' region in many contexts, they will think of buses too. But where else?

tbf. it's not really a debate. Metro literally means a type of rapid transport ran by trains which is fully segregated and there's hundreds of systems around the world named after it.
 

mangad

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tbf. it's not really a debate. Metro literally means a type of rapid transport ran by trains which is fully segregated and there's hundreds of systems around the world named after it.
There are. But how many are in the UK?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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There are. But how many are in the UK?
And if you asked most people in the UK, or at Kirkby bus station, would they know or care about these different Metro systems?

Whilst Metro does literally mean a light rail system, the derivation comes from the French métro that is a shortening of métropolitan that comes from the ancient Greek "métropolis" meaning Mother City.

Metro is used by a bank, a newspaper, was a small car of dubious safety in the 1980s ;) and, in the US, it refers to a metropolitan area which is probably why LRCA are using it.
 

Simon75

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Well in part because the overall idea is that public transport is public transport whether or not it runs on rails or has tyres. Bus and train are not in competition.
London still has separate branding ie London Underground, buses, overground and trams ...

For Merseyside I think of the Trains as Merseyrail, and Mersey Travel as the whats now Combined authority/PTE.
You did have MerseyBus ?
 

Statto

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And if you asked most people in the UK, or at Kirkby bus station, would they know or care about these different Metro systems?

Whilst Metro does literally mean a light rail system, the derivation comes from the French métro that is a shortening of métropolitan that comes from the ancient Greek "métropolis" meaning Mother City.

Metro is used by a bank, a newspaper, was a small car of dubious safety in the 1980s ;) and, in the US, it refers to a metropolitan area which is probably why LRCA are using it.

Agreed, how ordinary many people really care what the name is (or what livery the bus is in) they just want a bus to turn up & that's reliable to where they want to go to, this angst over the name is really annoying, when there is far more important other issues with the bus network.
 

Polarbear

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I assume that timetables for the Wirral franchise will be published shortly? Seem to recall that for St Helens, most were listed about six weeks prior to launch date?
 

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