Liverpool City Region-Bus Franchising

[markymark2000]

Looks like incorrect information was given out on X. According to the Merseytravel website, Solo etc. are valid on franchised buses on the whole route.

They want to work out what they are doing. Left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Joke of an organisation. This should have been perfected from the day the 'buses are changing' page went live. Not letting customer service staff misinform people and cause great uncertainty to people over the cost of their fares.

 

[adam rogan]

I'm not entirely sure it's particularly wise to admit to and justify your fare evasion in this way. Just because you did it, and a driver didn't pull you up about it, it doesn't make it right. What you did was no different at all to short faring on the railways and defrauding the railway is very much looked down upon. With buses under franchising, they still need to cover the cost of operations through farebox or subsidy, and every penny not met from the farebox, will come in the form of higher taxation or reduced services.
With that in mind, I find it baffling how you are so happy to almost boast about your fare evasion......

I don't do it now that I ended up becoming a bus driver so have less enthusiasm to go on endless trips like I used to. If i do decide to treat myself to a cross boundary route bashing for a day, i'll get the train and then ride local buses during the day so no need to 'evade' as you put it. I was simply speaking about the practical nature of having routes that traverse boundaries.

If you tap a Merseytravel ticket on a service like the x2 to Preston for example which is valid until the Crossens roundabout you naturally assume that it is valid, even if you don't know about the whole boundary limits issue (and many passengers don't- I had to learn by trial and error when I was younger until things became readily available on the net) plus the differences in which ticket is valid for which operator(think of those who buy Arriva or Stagecoach tickets who then are surprised when their smart card won't scan on the other operator's buses), people tend take the path of least resistance which is use your local pass one way, and pay the other because your pass literally won't work. The reason why people know about ticket validity on the train is on board ticket inspections, and hard barriers at stations which don't exist on buses. The Bee Network's travelsafe checks has drastically reduced fare evasion as it forces you to be in the know about what ticket goes where!

Looks like incorrect information was given out on X. According to the Merseytravel website, Solo etc. are valid on franchised buses on the whole route.

Merseytravel | Bus Changes

It’s the start of a new era for buses in the Liverpool City Region. Bringing the whole network under public control is a major change that will happen in stages, starting in St Helens.

www.merseytravel.gov.uk

That is a sigh of relief for those travelling on said routes. It doesn't specify though whether a solo will work on your return trip from Wigan/Leigh/Warrington/Widnes/Ormskirk e.t.c but once again, I'll be going on the new network this coming week and find out for myself.

 

[Statto]

Ticketing is going to be confusing at first for those going between Bluebell Lane/Page Moss to City Centre until Liverpool depots become part of franchising, as you have 8, 9, 10B all operated by Arriva but the 10, 10A is now Metro network, as people will still buy Arriva tickets but they won't be valid on the 10, 10A from next week

 

[317 forever]

^^^

That above segregation has been brought into the Liverpool bus map on the Arriva website. Routes 10/a and also route 89 have been removed.

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/maps/71

Conversely, the Runcorn/Widnes map still has route 17, even though it has joined the Metro St Helens franchise (and been renumbered 30).

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/maps/73

 

[Pinus contorta]

I haven't used any day ticket /Solo /whatever round St Helens. I am not holding my breath with the fares in the short term. I made a short journey on the (old) 22 from Garswood Station last week and was charged 3 quid in one direction and 2 quid the other way back.

I see another consequence of the new network is the removal of the cross boundary 602 services from Ashton along Liverpool Road over the M6 now that the 322 Service has changed.

 

[Djgr]

I for one am celebrating.

It has taken a lot of work over many years behind the scenes and against extremely powerful vested interests to remove the poison legacy of the Thatcher regime (who publically and appallingly called bus users failures).

 

[Pinus contorta]

I for one am celebrating.

It has taken a lot of work over many years behind the scenes and against extremely powerful vested interests to remove the poison legacy of the Thatcher regime (who publically and appallingly called bus users failures).

I had forgotten that was said. The Transport Secretary Nicholas Ridley was it?

 

[johncrossley]

Ticketing is going to be confusing at first for those going between Bluebell Lane/Page Moss to City Centre until Liverpool depots become part of franchising, as you have 8, 9, 10B all operated by Arriva but the 10, 10A is now Metro network, as people will still buy Arriva tickets but they won't be valid on the 10, 10A from next week

I was going to ask whether there is going to be a compensation scheme like there was in Greater Manchester, but then I checked the prices. The Arriva weekly and 4 weekly tickets are only slightly cheaper than the Merseytravel Solo ticket.

 

[markymark2000]

I was going to ask whether there is going to be a compensation scheme like there was in Greater Manchester, but then I checked the prices. The Arriva weekly and 4 weekly tickets are only slightly cheaper than the Merseytravel Solo ticket.

Prices are all still increased. And for many people who would connect in onto the 329 in St Helens, 360 in Newton or 17 in Widnes, people are now forced to pay twice for separate tickets. Same for the good people who would use the 22 to connect on/off other WOB services, they are now having to pay more.

Fares up by 10-20p for day tickets, 60p-£1.10 for weeklies £38 increase on annual tickets.

All quite nice fare hikes for people to celebrate the new numpty Metro network.

 

[Polarbear]

I had forgotten that was said. The Transport Secretary Nicholas Ridley was it?

He was the transport secretary, but I recall it was Margaret Thatcher that said/inferred that you were a failure if you didn’t drive your own car by the age of 25!

 

[PaulWC]

So Warrington are using dedicated buses for the 322, with Metro branding replacing the Warringtons Own Buses names

Facebook

www.facebook.com

 

[MCRTransitYT]

So Warrington are using dedicated buses for the 322, with Metro branding replacing the Warringtons Own Buses names

Facebook

www.facebook.com

They dont look the greatest, if they were going to wrap them, I think they shouldve wrapped them in the full Metro Network livery, like they have done with demo buses

 

[Fokx]

I haven't used any day ticket /Solo /whatever round St Helens. I am not holding my breath with the fares in the short term. I made a short journey on the (old) 22 from Garswood Station last week and was charged 3 quid in one direction and 2 quid the other way back.

Now as a Metro franchised service it will be £2 for a single journey regardless of distance, or £5.90 for the Solo day ticket

I see another consequence of the new network is the removal of the cross boundary 602 services from Ashton along Liverpool Road over the M6 now that the 322 Service has changed.

322 replaces this indirectly

 

[KHCT]

I for one am celebrating.

It has taken a lot of work over many years behind the scenes and against extremely powerful vested interests to remove the poison legacy of the Thatcher regime (who publically and appallingly called bus users failures).

Genuinely hilarious. For a start, we have governments not regimes. As for calling bus uses "failures", I'd love you to evidence that as there's no record that she or anyone in her government ever said it. https://fullfact.org/news/margaret-thatcher-bus/

 

[TheSel]

He was the transport secretary, but I recall it was Margaret Thatcher that said/inferred that you were a failure if you didn’t drive your own car by the age of 25!

Ah - the great Nicholas Ridley. A man whose ideology was far ahead of its time. After all, it was he who advised the unemployed to "Get on your bike". Not in their cars, nor even public transport systems, but bicycles. Good for health benefits, too.

Were he alive today, he would surely be leader of the Green Party.



Meanwhile ... back on topic anyone?

 

[Polarbear]

On topic, I assume day one around St Helens has gone well? I’ll try to get over there in the next couple of days & see some of the changes for myself.

 

[Bwsbro]

^^^

That above segregation has been brought into the Liverpool bus map on the Arriva website. Routes 10/a and also route 89 have been removed.

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/maps/71

Conversely, the Runcorn/Widnes map still has route 17, even though it has joined the Metro St Helens franchise (and been renumbered 30).

https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/maps/73

That will be because the Widnes map is dated May 2026

 

[adam rogan]

Now as a Metro franchised service it will be £2 for a single journey regardless of distance, or £5.90 for the Solo day ticket

322 replaces this indirectly

The 602 was the evening/sunday replacement for the 22 retaining the Ashton to Newton link and the 156 covered for the 157 and the 22 which provided 2 buses an hour between Garswood/Downall Green and Ashton in Makerfield Monday to Saturday daytimes.

One of the sad things about franchising is that Merseytravel often created quirky variations of fuller daytime routes which run exclusively during the evenings/Sunday but when you look at them, would have utility if they ran in tandem with daytime routes. The examples that come to the top of my mind are the 217a/217 which covers the 3 Route between Halewood and Huyton when it finishes during evenings and Sundays retaining this link, but diverts from the daytime standard 217 route and covers the Longview/Moss Croft estate in Huyton which I can only guess provides them with a socially neccesary bus when the 8 and 9 stop running. It also heads through Knowsley Lane towards Kirkby which covers ground covered by the 297 Monday to Friday by Hattons and the 289 covered by Huyton Travel on Saturday.

The 423 on the Wirral, as well as many of the 6x variant in Bootle are evening and Sunday exclusives that cover for daytime commercial routes with a subsidy. Huyton Travel's 121 and 135 are truncated versions of the Walton/Bootle Circulars , (214, 215 and 235). The 248 Prescot to Huyton Circular by HTL covers for the 239 run by Hattons. Franchising will see a stabilizing of the network but to the detriment of some of these handy bus routes.

With regards to the 602, I can't see how the 156 or the 322 can serve Garswood/Downall Green while simultaneously going down Liverpool road without a huge detour but I hope that the 156 is enhanced to run to Ashton in Makerfield but run via Spindle Hillock/Low Bank Road/Cansfield Road and Wigan Road which would provides areas previously unserved with a new link. If Liverpool Road in Ashton needs a new bus link, Merseytravel and Tfgm could jointly enhance the 599 and extend it via Liverpool Road to serve Haydock Industrial Estate and return to Bolton providing the region with access to a major employment centre.

I hope that once the entire network is under public control, less focus is put on gimmicks that are bound to fail such as the X3 but more on creating utility to as many residents in the region as possible.

 

[childwallblues]

Have any thoughts been given yet o any further route move yet. We know Gillmoss is losing the 10A, 53, 82 and 86 but will the Green Lane/Gillmoss gain any routes? I was thinking of the 60 61 62 which were PAR routes prior to de-regulation in 1986. The current 62 is an extension of the old 99. All three of these routes spend very little of their journey within the Sefton boundary and could easily operate from the Green Lane/Gillmoss franchise.

 

[Man of Kent]

Ah - the great Nicholas Ridley. A man whose ideology was far ahead of its time. After all, it was he who advised the unemployed to "Get on your bike". Not in their cars, nor even public transport systems, but bicycles. Good for health benefits, too.

That quote isn't right either. It was Norman Tebbit, talking about his father, who said "I grew up in the Thirties with our unemployed father. He did not riot, he got on his bike and looked for work." It was a speech made at the 1981 Conservative Party conference. https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780191826719.001.0001/q-oro-ed4-00010663

 

[Djgr]

Genuinely hilarious. For a start, we have governments not regimes. As for calling bus uses "failures", I'd love you to evidence that as there's no record that she or anyone in her government ever said it. https://fullfact.org/news/margaret-thatcher-bus/

For the record, the actual quote which may or may not have been said by Thatcher was:

"A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure"

It certainly chimes with her worldview.

 

[Pinus contorta]

The 602 was the evening/sunday replacement for the 22 retaining the Ashton to Newton link and the 156 covered for the 157 and the 22 which provided 2 buses an hour between Garswood/Downall Green and Ashton in Makerfield Monday to Saturday daytimes.

One of the sad things about franchising is that Merseytravel often created quirky variations of fuller daytime routes which run exclusively during the evenings/Sunday but when you look at them, would have utility if they ran in tandem with daytime routes. The examples that come to the top of my mind are the 217a/217 which covers the 3 Route between Halewood and Huyton when it finishes during evenings and Sundays retaining this link, but diverts from the daytime standard 217 route and covers the Longview/Moss Croft estate in Huyton which I can only guess provides them with a socially neccesary bus when the 8 and 9 stop running. It also heads through Knowsley Lane towards Kirkby which covers ground covered by the 297 Monday to Friday by Hattons and the 289 covered by Huyton Travel on Saturday.

The 423 on the Wirral, as well as many of the 6x variant in Bootle are evening and Sunday exclusives that cover for daytime commercial routes with a subsidy. Huyton Travel's 121 and 135 are truncated versions of the Walton/Bootle Circulars , (214, 215 and 235). The 248 Prescot to Huyton Circular by HTL covers for the 239 run by Hattons. Franchising will see a stabilizing of the network but to the detriment of some of these handy bus routes.

With regards to the 602, I can't see how the 156 or the 322 can serve Garswood/Downall Green while simultaneously going down Liverpool road without a huge detour but I hope that the 156 is enhanced to run to Ashton in Makerfield but run via Spindle Hillock/Low Bank Road/Cansfield Road and Wigan Road which would provides areas previously unserved with a new link. If Liverpool Road in Ashton needs a new bus link, Merseytravel and Tfgm could jointly enhance the 599 and extend it via Liverpool Road to serve Haydock Industrial Estate and return to Bolton providing the region with access to a major employment centre.

I hope that once the entire network is under public control, less focus is put on gimmicks that are bound to fail such as the X3 but more on creating utility to as many residents in the region as possible.

Thinking about the 602 down Liverpool Road there is sparse population the Helens side of the Boundary. There is lots of mixed industrial but very few dwellings. I can see why it's been removed.

 

[Polarbear]

A quick trip from Liverpool to Old Swan & back this morning has been interesting.

No issues outbound, service 10 operated with a brand new vehicle, just a few minutes late.

Returning to central Liverpool, it appears the timetable isn’t working as I waited at Old Swan for around 15 minutes with nothing passing! Four buses duly turn up at the same time (2 on route 10b which is yet to be franchised, a 9 and one 10a).

Also, the newly franchised services no longer appear on the Arriva or Stagecoach app’s, (Stagecoach shows nothing whilst Arriva only show non-franchises services).

All in, quite poor.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Also, the newly franchised services no longer appear on the Arriva or Stagecoach app’s, (Stagecoach shows nothing whilst Arriva only show non-franchises services

Do the apps normally show services not operated under the Stagecoach/Arriva (as appropriate) brands?

 

[mangad]

Also, the newly franchised services no longer appear on the Arriva or Stagecoach app’s, (Stagecoach shows nothing whilst Arriva only show non-franchises services).

Why would/should they appear?

 

[Polarbear]

Do the apps normally show services not operated under the Stagecoach/Arriva (as appropriate) brands?

No, the Stagecoach & Arriva apps only show their respective services. This remains the case in other parts of Merseyside (Wirral for example where I live).

Merseytravel do have their own app, but I’ve never found it to be particularly good. I may have to resort to using that app going forward.

 

[RELL6L]

Difficult to tell exactly how well they are doing at the start of the new era. Someone on the ground would be best to determine. BusTimes gives quite a bit of flavour but there may be vehicles not tracking.

Yesterday there looked to be quite a bit of late running on the 10A and some gaps. In particular some trips were very late leaving St Helens and never caught up, a few returning out of service to St Helens. Even really late running boards didn't generally seem to be replaced by a different vehicle in St Helens even though it must have been a new driver.

Gaps look fewer today but still some late running. Looking at 18940 it was 35 minutes late leaving St Helens on its first journey (07.38 should have been 07.03), arriving 47 late in Liverpool, then skipped back empty to St Helens but still left 31 minutes late on its second journey (11.04 should have been 10.33). It is behind the 10.43 but ahead of the 10.53, both of which are 16 minutes late. The 10.23 meanwhile is on time so a large gap behind it. Three in convoy eastbound near Page Moss, one of which says it is 72 minutes late, large gaps ahead and behind these. One bus on the 89 is 27 minutes late but the others seem more punctual. One 352 is over 20 minutes late. The only bus on the 37A is 24 minutes late. But many other routes seem roughly on time. Probably teething difficulties with settling in. And usual BusTimes caveat on accuracy and maybe less accurate than normal if vehicles are not set up or journeys wrongly entered.

 

[mayneway]

I believe there’s quite a few drivers on loan from various Stagecoach groups around the UK at the moment, does that indicate a possible shortage of drivers?

 

[Djgr]

Why would/should they appear?

They won't appear.

The actual bus operator of the franchise will be fairly hidden from the general public, as is the case with Transport for London and, for instance, the franchise holder of your local McDonald's (unless somebody knows differently!).

 

[6Gman]

For the record, the actual quote which may or may not have been said by Thatcher was:

"A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure"

It certainly chimes with her worldview.

There is no evidence that Thatcher ever said this. The aphorism goes back long before her time. It has been attributed to Loelia, Duchess of Westminster (1902-93); a friend of hers says that she got the phrase from a poet named Brian Harwood (1905-58).