Live Bus Times - What does a Bus Company have to do implement this?

[class17]

I travel on various bus routes, some you can follow online, others not.

What does a bus company have to do to provide this information, and will there be a cost to the bus company?

All the buses appear to have the same equipment, i.e. a scanner to read the QR code on my ticket.

 

[capitalconnect]

I travel on various bus routes, some you can follow online, others not.

What does a bus company have to do to provide this information, and will there be a cost to the bus company?

All the buses appear to have the same equipment, i.e. a scanner to read the QR code on my ticket.

They will need to have either a ticket machine that is capable of tracking (such as Ticketer for example) and have the tracking switched on or they need some sort of other tracking device fitted on the bus. About 90% of bus companies have this these days. However there are still a small amount of bus operators who have no tracking at all.

 

[darloscott]

They will need to have either a ticket machine that is capable of tracking (such as Ticketer for example) and have the tracking switched on or they need some sort of other tracking device fitted on the bus. About 90% of bus companies have this these days. However there are still a small amount of bus operators who have no tracking at all.

The majority of operators who use Ticketer machines also utilise the live tracking feed provided by them for BODS (Bus Open Data Service) feeds, which is what gets relaid to third party sites such as Bustimes. Ticketer do charge (a fair bit!) for this of course!

 

[Dai Corner]

In theory, all local bus operators in England should have been publishing their real-time location data to BODS since 7 January 2021. See the last paragraph of the quote below. From there, third-parties like bustimes.org can make it available online even if the operators themselves don't.

Bus operator requirements

BODS

publish.bus-data.dft.gov.uk

Bus location data​

Bus location data is also known as Automated Vehicle Location (AVL) and gives information about the bus location at that point in time. All data feeds published must be in the SIRI-VM Version 2.0 or 2.0Q format.

What is SIRI-VM?​

The Service Interface for Real Time Information (SIRI) specifies a European interface standard for exchanging information about the planned, current or projected performance of real-time public transport operations between different computer systems.

SIRI-VM is specifically the vehicle monitoring service, which allows for the exchange of real-time positions of public transport vehicles.

The service is designed to exchange vehicle monitoring information between control systems, and to distribute to journey planners, alert systems and displays that they would be able to process and match real-time positions based on structured elements. More information can be found at:http://siri.org.uk/

How can I produce SIRI-VM?​

Operators with electronic ticket machine (ETM), location system or real time supplier should contact them to discuss their ability to provide a feed that aligns with the Department for Transport SIRI-VM Profile.

Operators without ETM suppliers should contact their Local Transport Authority to discuss solutions, such as hardware lease agreements, and guidance they can offer.

Crowdedness data​

Information about the crowdedness of public transport options has become a key metric in passengers and their modal decisions. Passengers need to be able to assess their safety, both temporally and spatially. They need to know what time of day, and which journey option is the safest. By providing clear data on crowdedness, operators can enable themselves to balance safety and capacity, and enable potential passengers to modal shift safely towards local bus options. Operators are expected to include this information to ensure the safety of passengers.

The fields required in SIRI-VM, and the Department for Transport SIRI VM Profile, for crowdedness data are:

• Monitored Vehicle Journey - Progress Info - Occupancy
• Monitored Vehicle Journey - Departure Boarding Activity (to be used to set to No Boarding if vehicle is full)

The Department for Transport SIRI VM Profile​

The requirement for operators of local bus services across England to openly publish their location data feeds to the Bus Open Data Service comes into effect from 07 January 2021.

The table below gives an overview of the mandatory and optional elements included in the profile.

Mandatory	Optional
Bearing	Departure Boarding Activity
BlockRef	DestinationAimedArrivalTime
DestinationRef	DestinationName
DirectionRef	ItemIdentifier
LineRef	MonitoredCall (Departure Boarding Activity)
MonitoredVehicleJourney	Occupancy
OperatorRef	OriginAimedDepartureTime
OriginName	VehicleActivity
OriginRef	Velocity
ProducerRef
PublishedLineName
RecordedAtTime
ResponseTimestamp
ValidUntilTime
VehicleJourneyRef
VehicleLocation (Logitude, Latitude)
VehicleMonitoringDelivery (Vehicle Activity)

 

[Citistar]

There are costs involved. To provide the SIRI feed from Ticketer has an additional cost. For major operators running intensive services, this cost is negligible. For one running nine journeys a week (or four during school holidays), it is not. This may explain why some operators are not yet compliant with live tracking requirements.

 

[class17]

Thanks for the replies. I guess it is a significant up front capital cost and low usage fees, or rental. Although the buses I use appear to have the same ticketing machines.

They are Lancashire County Council tendered services. Tyrers coaches and Rosso-Transdev appear on Bustimes but Holmeswood Coaches don't. They all appear to have the hardware. Perhaps LCC are not prepared to fund the cost of making the data live for low usage routes and routes that may not last long when the government grants are not renewed?


Whilst I was out yesterday, I witnessed a couple of instances of fellow passengers becoming concerned about their slightly delayed services. It is so much more reassuring to see your bus being plotted on a map, especially in rural areas where frequency is low.

For those buses that have live data, there is no information on the bus that this service is available. I only know about this because of this forum. I think others would find it useful.

 

[markymark2000]

There are costs involved. To provide the SIRI feed from Ticketer has an additional cost. For major operators running intensive services, this cost is negligible. For one running nine journeys a week (or four during school holidays), it is not. This may explain why some operators are not yet compliant with live tracking requirements.

Are you, like many independents, awaiting the enforcement deadline to start investing in the tracking side?

Thanks for the replies. I guess it is a significant up front capital cost and low usage fees, or rental. Although the buses I use appear to have the same ticketing machines.

They are Lancashire County Council tendered services. Tyrers coaches and Rosso-Transdev appear on Bustimes but Holmeswood Coaches don't. They all appear to have the hardware. Perhaps LCC are not prepared to fund the cost of making the data live for low usage routes and routes that may not last long when the government grants are not renewed?

It's not really the hardware as such as most operators have Ticketer already, it's a case of paying up an additional £100 per machine, per year for tracking. Other operators may have other tracking systems and there are some innovative businesses out there which have options not including Ticketer such as using phone location and an Android app.

As for Lancashire County Council not being prepared to fund it, come retendering, this cost will be included in the tender fee so they will end up paying it. Surely most councils will agree that any additional costs should be covered by the operator or they should hand it back for retendering, it's not ok for councils to just keep throwing money at an operator who, after being awarded the contract, finds out about additional costs.

It is a legal requirement, albeit not yet enforced due to the transition period, for all buses on registered local services to share tracking data via the bus open data system and if you don't comply, one of the most extreme punishments is you could have your operators licence removed (punishments include fines but persistent failure to comply could result in conditions attached to the ops licence to prevent them from running local bus services.

Whilst I was out yesterday, I witnessed a couple of instances of fellow passengers becoming concerned about their slightly delayed services. It is so much more reassuring to see your bus being plotted on a map, especially in rural areas where frequency is low.

For those buses that have live data, there is no information on the bus that this service is available. I only know about this because of this forum. I think others would find it useful.

To be fair, a number of operators are now pointing people towards Bustimes for bus tracking including Hulleys. There are more but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Something tells me that there is a council as well who has a bustimes link on their public transport page.

It is far from as publicised as it should be but a lot of bus operators and councils don't like linking people to external services unless they officially endorse them as it can help people to find and use competing services.

 

[Citistar]

Are you, like many independents, awaiting the enforcement deadline to start investing in the tracking side?

The problem is that our operation falls between everything. We run everything commercially, so the councils take no interest in helping us as they do with some of their tendered operators. I'm still waiting for staff to answer to some questions asked almost two years ago regarding their upgrade proposals. Because we're not a big operation, we're not seen as being important nor a priority. There are obviously things going on behind the scenes that we don't get told about, as when i've spoken to Ticketer in the recent past, they've told me there are apparently next generation machines reserved for us, so who knows?

To be honest, the problem with the ticketing/tracking market at the moment is that everyone is trying to overload their offering. I'm sure that the average smartphone can easily perform what is required under Bus Open Data and i would be happy to pay for an app and even a modest subscription for us to provide a data feed through that method. Trouble is that every provider who talks to me is keen on pushing some huge all-encompassing solution which simply isn't appropriate nor financially viable to us.

To give you an idea of scale, we do a daily trip out of a rural area to connect with a frequent bus route provided by First and two rural weekly shoppers buses. Because they're cross boundary services, neither of the councils involved want to contribute towards them and if we stop running them, nobody else will. If Bus Open Data puts us beyond being viable, then so be it. It is apparently what the public want...

 

[johncrossley]

a lot of bus operators and councils don't like linking people to external services unless they officially endorse them as it can help people to find and use competing services.

How is this good for the passenger?

 

[markymark2000]

How is this good for the passenger?

Well.... It's not but as any business, they are there to help themselves survive. You don't see insurance companies advertising comparison sites. There are only one or two bus operators who promote evening and sunday trips if they are ran by another operator. That is something passengers need to know more than live tracking. 99% of businesses will not promote another business.