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List of First Class on all TOC's - from best to worst

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Failed Unit

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If YP discounts are stopped then senior discounts need to be stopped too. It's fair to say that it's a privilege instead of a right but when does giving privileges out become discrimination?

The age ranges to be honest are the problem, the YP is 16-25 which is aimed mainly at the student population. I must admit I would never have dreamt of spending cash on a 1st class ticket when I was a student - beer is much more worthwhilte :lol:

However in that age - group some 16-24 year olds will be earning quite a lot of money.

Likewise the senior railcard is really aimed at people who are only have a pension as earnings, but many will still be working and earning a reasonable wage.

To me however offering child and YP discounts in 1st seems a bit unreasonable, I don't know why, it could simply because when 1st AP tickets were introduced they were not available and this change after "simplification". I guess this dinosaur is jealous and would shut up if the family railcard was valid on first fares as well. :lol:
 
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AlterEgo

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Passenger Focus won't care, they'll just agree with what the Government wants!

Passenger Focus are completely useless to be perfectly honest. At best they are a mediation service between aggreived passenger and TOC, or a nonsensical soundbite production facility.

They gave a very watery statement about complex ticketing to the BBC yesterday.
 

90019

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On a slightly unrelated note, I was talking to a transport MP on the Arriva Premier Service last week, who said that allowing First Class discounts for OAP's but not young people could contradict EU human rights legislation - so there! He's confident that some soliciter out there would want to take it up in the EUHR! I probably won't go that far :lol: - I'll complain to Passenger Focus first.

I reckon what will actually happen is that they'll just remove the Senior railcard discount.
 

Royston Vasey

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To the OP, your reasons for excluding GC seem somewhat specious. £74 for 3h50 in an HST or 180 isn't expensive, just not a dirt cheap advance. Having used GC 1st this morning the offering was slight but the service very regular and very friendly. Better than TPE for example in my experience, although clearly not as good as EC nowadays. That said, before the new meal offering EC/NXEC offered virtually identical service to GC now even on most services on weekdays.

All depends on what you're basing things on.

For what it's worth, GC wouldn't be that high up but the FC offering was adequate for the price and the patronage of the service. A full restaurant service for maybe 20 people (and this number would vary wildly service to service, making catering planning difficult) would be unrealistic.
 

AlterEgo

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To the OP, your reasons for excluding GC seem somewhat specious. £74 for 3h50 in an HST or 180 isn't expensive, just not a dirt cheap advance. Having used GC 1st this morning the offering was slight but the service very regular and very friendly.

I have found this numerous times - you don't get a lot of freebies. Admittedly, I have a railcard so it comes in at £48.85, which I consider a good deal.

I always find the staff motivated and friendly - I do have a soft spot for GC.
 

SS4

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The age ranges to be honest are the problem, the YP is 16-25 which is aimed mainly at the student population. I must admit I would never have dreamt of spending cash on a 1st class ticket when I was a student - beer is much more worthwhilte :lol:

However in that age - group some 16-24 year olds will be earning quite a lot of money.

Likewise the senior railcard is really aimed at people who are only have a pension as earnings, but many will still be working and earning a reasonable wage.

To me however offering child and YP discounts in 1st seems a bit unreasonable, I don't know why, it could simply because when 1st AP tickets were introduced they were not available and this change after "simplification". I guess this dinosaur is jealous and would shut up if the family railcard was valid on first fares as well. :lol:

Seems fair. Perhaps splitting into a student railcard (available on presentation of enrolment letter or NUS card) and then having another one for those in receipt of means tested benefits the latter available to all ages.

Not that I want them to do that! I like getting 1/3 off First Class advances with my railcard :D

Of course if they really wanted to simplify railcards then simply have the minimum fare expire when the morning peak ends (it's annoying not being able to get the 9:58 but I refuse to pay an extra 70p when I can get the 10:08!)
 

Failed Unit

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Of course if they really wanted to simplify railcards then simply have the minimum fare expire when the morning peak ends (it's annoying not being able to get the 9:58 but I refuse to pay an extra 70p when I can get the 10:08!)

You are lucky when I was in the YP user age-group BR moved my prefered service from 1003 - 0959. The train still arrived at 1003 but because it was scheduled to leave at 0959 no discount because of the minimum fare. The next train was 1159 so a long wait. It was part of the BR cunning plan to lose customers after introducing the 153!
 

All Line Rover

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I reckon what will actually happen is that they'll just remove the Senior railcard discount.

I can't imagine them doing that - ever. First Class on many TOC's during the Off-Peak is very quiet (*ahem*Virgin*ahem*). I often have a First Class carriage to myself between Crewe and Manchester!

I just don't understand why the TOC's (or at least ATOC) are so adamantly opposed to offering a discount on all First Class fares with a 16-25 Railcard. Surely they want to fill up First Class? East Coast have certainly been demonstrating this recently. It would be good publicity too.
 

Failed Unit

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I can't imagine them doing that - ever. First Class on many TOC's during the Off-Peak is very quiet (*ahem*Virgin*ahem*). I often have a First Class carriage to myself between Crewe and Manchester!

I just don't understand why the TOC's (or at least ATOC) are so adamantly opposed to offering a discount on all First Class fares with a 16-25 Railcard. Surely they want to fill up First Class? East Coast have certainly been demonstrating this recently. It would be good publicity too.

But why discriminate, Virgin could offer cheaper APs to everyone and fill up first if they wanted to! Lets say you have a £60 AP which is £40 to railcard holders, reduce it to £50 then everyone is happy!

Oh and Virgin seem to like having more customers than passengers in first, do you know how difficult it is to get an AP between Edinburgh and Birmingham?
 

All Line Rover

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Oh and Virgin seem to like having more customers than passengers in first, do you know how difficult it is to get an AP between Edinburgh and Birmingham?

Very difficult if you want 1 ticket. Very easy if you don't. You can save a fortune by splitting at Crewe (there is a very cheap way to travel First Class between Crewe and Birmingham, which I am not disclosing on here. I will tell you if I meet you.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But why discriminate, Virgin could offer cheaper APs to everyone and fill up first if they wanted to! Lets say you have a £60 AP which is £40 to railcard holders, reduce it to £50 then everyone is happy!

If they did that, the "discount" appeal that Railcard's bring would vanish, and First Class would start to seem expensive again within a few months!
 
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Failed Unit

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If they did that, the "discount" appeal that Railcard's bring would vanish, and First Class would start to seem expensive again within a few months!

Not to the majority of people who don't have a railcard :lol:

But you may decide if you are only travelling first the railcard isn't worth buying, if you travel a lot using standard you may decide it is. My parents never bought the senior railcard during the times the cheapest APs were not discounted they could plan a long way in advance anyway.
 

Butts

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Perhaps there should be minmum standard in order for a service to qualify as 1st Class so people know what to expect.

How about Economy , Club and First Class ?

The only real 1st Class would be East Coast Virgin FGW etc (ie Inter City)

The pseudo first like South East London Midland etc would be relegated to Club.
 

MidnightFlyer

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The fares system is complex enough without offering a third class between Euston and Rugby etc!
 

tbtc

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Very difficult if you want 1 ticket. Very easy if you don't. You can save a fortune by splitting at Crewe (there is a very cheap way to travel First Class between Crewe and Birmingham, which I am not disclosing on here. I will tell you if I meet you.)

Do you realise how daft that sounds (when we have a busy (sub)forum on here dedicated to helping people with routing/ cheap tickets? But you don't want to share with the rest of the class...
 

MidnightFlyer

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Do you realise how daft that sounds (when we have a busy (sub)forum on here dedicated to helping people with routing/ cheap tickets? But you don't want to share with the rest of the class...

Ah, but if he did, what if someone from ATOC etc read it and decided to change it as people actually knew about it?

 

tbtc

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Ah, but if he did, what if someone from ATOC etc read it and decided to change it as people actually knew about it?


In the way that they've stopped people from splitting journeys at Gloucester (and various other "tricks")?

Sorry, am a bit crabbit tonight due to the strangely high number of First Class threads... ;)
 

Yew

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Very difficult if you want 1 ticket. Very easy if you don't. You can save a fortune by splitting at Crewe (there is a very cheap way to travel First Class between Crewe and Birmingham, which I am not disclosing on here. I will tell you if I meet you.)

All line rover? or maybe some other kind of rover ticket? Or maybe splitting tickets at every station? Or getting a ticket for a birmingham station that isnt on the line and would require a change to a train without first class early on in the journey?, but also the ticket is valid for allbirmingham stations?

Is it a loophole? or just an idiosyncrasy of the UK ticket system (such as splitting tickets?
 

All Line Rover

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All line rover? or maybe some other kind of rover ticket? Or maybe splitting tickets at every station? Or getting a ticket for a birmingham station that isnt on the line and would require a change to a train without first class early on in the journey?, but also the ticket is valid for allbirmingham stations?

Is it a loophole? or just an idiosyncrasy of the UK ticket system (such as splitting tickets?

It's a "loophole" that is caused by the idiosyncrasy of the UK ticket system! :lol: As I said, if I meet you and you want to know, I will tell you. But there's no way I'm posting it on here - as Matt said, ATOC are known to read this forum!
 

tbtc

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It's a "loophole" that is caused by the idiosyncrasy of the UK ticket system! :lol: As I said, if I meet you and you want to know, I will tell you. But there's no way I'm posting it on here - as Matt said, ATOC are known to read this forum!

...and as I said there are a lot of threads on here full of advice about "idiosyncrasies" (splitting tickets, routing etc). Most people are helpful with this kind of information...
 

All Line Rover

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...and as I said there are a lot of threads on here full of advice about "idiosyncrasies" (splitting tickets, routing etc). Most people are helpful with this kind of information...

People on this forum are helpful with general, "sensible" splitting and telling people what route their ticket is valid on. They are unlikely disclose major "loopholes" in the Routeing Guide - if they do then they are a little stupid in my honest opinion.
 
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yorkie

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People on this forum are helpful with general, "sensible" splitting and telling people what route their ticket is valid on.
Indeed.
They don't disclose major "loopholes" in the Routeing Guide!
In general that is correct.
(And if they did I'm sure the Moderators would be quick to remove it!)
I'm not so sure about that! I don't really see it as a moderating decision (but, really this is going ridiculously off-topic). I will sometimes PM people, the OP warning them that the guard may not accept the ticket and to expect a 'discussion' with the guard/RPIs if they use it (many people do not want the hassle. I would not book tickets for family members that I may use myself as they don't want an argument and have to ask the guard to look up the NRCoC/RG!) and to the OP advising that there may be issues with the advice.

If it's incorrect (or even partially incorrect) I have no qualms removing it, to avoid confusion. Sometimes this is not done because people have already quoted it and stated it is incorrect and this has been done in a sensible meaningful way meaning that intervention is not required.

I do not recommend people use routes that a guard is likely to report to ATOC to get it removed. I may, however, PM people saying "there is a ticket you can get that is valid, and cheaper, if you are prepared to be challenged by a guard. Let me know if you are" and in fact most people do not want to be challenged and do not want the 'enhanced' advice and just accept the general advice we make public.

The advice we give to OPs (original posters - for anyone who is unsure what OP means) can be read by anyone, often people will find the thread by a Google search later. We have to be careful not to give advice that is ludicrously complex or hard to follow that could easily result in disputes and arguments with passengers who are poorly prepared for such an encounter, and guards who barely know the RG exists.

It is hard to strike a balance, and people also do not like it when people say "I know a secret but I am not prepared to tell you", that really annoys people (and understandably so), though giving some sensible advice followed by "there are other cheaper tickets that are valid, but are likely to be challenged as they are major loopholes, PM me if you want details" would be reasonable.

A post like "(there is a very cheap way to travel First Class between Crewe and Birmingham, which I am not disclosing on here. I will tell you if I meet you.)" would be deemed irritating to some people.

I will admit now that anyone who does meet us in person (at any forum meet, e.g. Challenges, meals, fares workshops) is able to have a very friendly, informal chat where we may well reveal things that are not appropriate for the forum, and once we have met people we may well be more inclined to share information. That is pretty obvious stuff, and is hardly ground-breaking or shocking and I'm sure applies elsewhere too! But wording it in such a way that you tell people there is a particular ticket but you aren't telling them until you meet them, the wording sounds a little harsh. Of course, as I know you, I realise you did not mean for it to come across that way. It's difficult to get the balance right, and to get the wording right, I'll accept that!
 
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