List of C3 gauge rolling stock

[Rhydgaled]

I am wondering what rolling stock has 'go awaywhere'-ish capability (ie. not class 165/166 or IEP). Obviously there are specific issues for specific classes on some lines, but in general if 175s and 158s are both cleared (both C3 units I think) I assume any other C3 stock could use that line.

As far as I know the following stock is C3:

• Class 158
• Class 175
• Mark 3 coaching stock
• Mark 4 coaching stock

What else is there?

 

[Old Timer]

C1, C3 or C4 are known as standard vehicle gauges.

Rolling stock which may tilt is built to remain within C3 gauge under tilt conditions but is denoted by the reference C4.

 

[Rhydgaled]

C1, C3 or C4 are known as standard vehicle gauges.

Rolling stock which may tilt is built to remain within C3 gauge under tilt conditions but is denoted by the reference C4.

390s (Pendolinos) might be C4, but I've found a picture online in the past which shows a GNER restaurant car (well, it says restaurant on the side, but window arrangment looks like a normal TSO/FO) with power doors (so unless it is a prototype for power-door mark 3s, it is a mark 4) with C3 on the end of it (and mark 4s were built to tilt). That's the evidence I have for mark 4s being C3 stock. The coach in question is on it's own with steps leading up to some of the doors, so I guess it was taken at a depot open day.

What other stock is C3?

 

[driver9000]

Class 153,155,156 and 180 are C3.

Mk4 coaches and 390s are C4.

 

[swt_passenger]

Class 442s

 

[Helvellyn]

C1 is 20m vehicles if I recall, so what is C2 gauge?

 

[themiller]

The Mark 4s may have been built to a tilt profile but the ECML stock was never equiped for it. The Mark 4 was to have been a BR standard design with tilt equipment fitted to WCML allocated stock, for example. As such the Mark 4 is C3 as marked at the coach ends.

 

[ainsworth74]

Surely just about all the 23m stock in the country will be C3?

 

[driver9000]

The Mark 4s may have been built to a tilt profile but the ECML stock was never equiped for it. The Mark 4 was to have been a BR standard design with tilt equipment fitted to WCML allocated stock, for example. As such the Mark 4 is C3 as marked at the coach ends.

I was certain I'd seen C4 markings on the coach ends. I must pay more attention to stock I'm not around that much

 

[swt_passenger]

Newer stock such as Desiros and Electrostar isn't marked C1 or C3, is it?

A good case is the 444, which you'd expect to be notionally C3, but AFAICT it is too long to be C3, hence being slightly narrower overall. It probably does go anywhere a C3 vehicle can, but doesn't have a relevant marking on the carriage end.

I think this is because vehicle design is no longer as straightforward or simple as just keeping everything inside the published C1 or C3 envelope.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I was certain I'd seen C4 markings on the coach ends. I must pay more attention to stock I'm not around that much

I'm sure I've seen C4 as well.

 

[Marton]

From Wikipedia.

Many of these innovations came courtesy of the abandoned Advanced Passenger Train, upon which the Mark 4 was heavily based. This influence was most obvious with the Mark 4's profiled sides, which were intended to allow the retrofitting of tilt mechanism equipped bogies derived from the much criticised APT. This would have allowed up to 6° of tilt; modified coaches would then have been designated "Mark 4 T" but this plan was abandoned by BR in January 1986. British Rail's initial business case for the Mark 4 anticipated them also being operated on the West Coast Main Line as a follow-on order after the East Coast Main Line electrification. After the failure of the InterCity 250 project to gain Treasury support, British Rail ordered a small number of Class 90 locomotives, which were used to supplement existing locomotives on the West Coast Main Line until the introduction of Class 390 'Pendolino' units a decade later.​

May or may not be correct.

Having been on both a pendolino and Mk IV this week, i know which i prefer.

Mk IV has much more headroom; the pendolino loos often leave a terrible smell in the coach.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm sure I've seen C4 as well.

I've never noticed C4 on any stock myself, but I was read today that Pendos have it, so you may have seen C4 on a Pendo.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I've never noticed C4 on any stock myself, but I was read today that Pendos have it, so you may have seen C4 on a Pendo.

I'm sure the Mk 4s had C4 on their ends when new, mybe until they had the tilt equipment removed. Trying to find an image of a new Mk 4 showing a coach end but it's tough to find one!

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure the Mk 4s had C4 on their ends when new, mybe until they had the tilt equipment removed.

There never was any physical tilt equipment to remove though. The only preparation made for tilt was the body profile.

 

[Royston Vasey]

There never was any physical tilt equipment to remove though. The only preparation made for tilt was the body profile.

Not tilt equipment, sorry - I meant tilt compatibility. Something to do with bogie mods iirc

 

[dubscottie]

Class 323 and 142 are C3 if i remember right.. Even though a 323 vehicle is almost the same length as a pendo coach.

Going by books I don't think the length of the vehicle determines its C category, but the width, height, length between bogies, overhang etc..
I remember the reason that the Mk3's have tapered doors was to make sure they go round bends.. And the reason there is a MK2f is because the Civil Engineer originally said no to the Mk3 and they had to build something.

Likewise 377's etc are shorter than 170's to suit the Southern loading gauge.

When D9000 was returned to the mainline it was allowed to operate over any lines with a C1 restriction. ie it could go anywhere a Mk1 could.

 

[driver9000]

Class 323 and 142 are C3 if i remember right...

Class 142s are C1.

 

[150222]

Class 323 and 142 are C3 if i remember right.. Even though a 323 vehicle is almost the same length as a pendo coach.

Going by books I don't think the length of the vehicle determines its C category, but the width, height, length between bogies, overhang etc..
I remember the reason that the Mk3's have tapered doors was to make sure they go round bends.. And the reason there is a MK2f is because the Civil Engineer originally said no to the Mk3 and they had to build something.

Likewise 377's etc are shorter than 170's to suit the Southern loading gauge.

That is rubbish! 377's along with many other types of commuter stock (including 150's) have shorter BUT WIDER carriages to allow for 3x2 seating and/or increased standing room and have the C1 profile. Nothing to do with southern loading gauge. Remember 171's (which are identical to 170's exept the couplers) work over the same lines as 377's.

Also 142's are C1 not C3.

 

[Old Timer]

Now that I have more time, I would like to expand on my previous answer to the gauge question.

Firstly to reconfirm, C1 relates to the standard vehicle gauge for rolling stock. Only C1 gauge is recognised for the purposes of gauging as ALL rolling stock must fit within this gauge.

C1 vehicle gauge is based on passenger vehicles which fit within the following criteria :
Length – 19 354m over the headstocks
Distance between bogie centres – 14 173m
Bogie wheelbase – 2591mm to 2967mm

Both vehicles with conventional sprung bogies, as well as those with air suspension are included within the C1 gauge, albeit there are some slight detailed dimensional variations but none which are of relevance to this explanation.

C2 is not a gauge I recall being used.

C3 vehicle gauge simply denotes that the vehicle is a 23m long Mk 3 vehicle. It was introduced in BR days as some standard routes had not been specifically cleared for the use of MK3 stock. For example Bletchley to Bedford was not cleared for Mk3 stock until 1985, although Mk 3 stock had operated along the WCML for many years previously. There is a belief that C3 is a gauge. It is not. It has no relevance in gauging whatsoever as a C3 vehicle is designed to remain within C1 vehicle gauge.

C4 vehicle gauge was originally used to denote a passenger vehicle which was designed to tilt within the C1 vehicle gauge, and was originally applied to the Mk4s although as various people have stated, these vehicles were never introduced as tilting vehicles. The designation is now referenced against the Class 390 Pendolino stock.

There are two other gauges which must also be considered.

The first is the Eurostar Class 373 vehicle gauge (Eurostar Gauge) sits by itself and is only applicable to those trains.
The second is UK1 gauge, which is the new gauge to which is referred to in the Technical Specification for Interoperability (TSI). Any train that it is proposed to operate into the UK through the Channel Tunnel must meet the vehicle gauge requirements in order to be operated within the UK.

All new infrastructure is built to allow for UK1 gauge rolling stock, and as existing infrastructure is renewed, where possible the clearances are designed in. The structure gauge which applies to these structures is in no way directly related to UK1 but does allow UK1 vehicles to operate, and it is very important that people do not confuse vehicle, loading and structure “gauges”. They are three very different items.

Structure gauging is a complex subject even for the experts and I hope I have managed to simply a complex process without causing too much confusion.

Any question, please ask and I will do my best to reply, or find out the correct answer.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Unless I've misunderstood, what you seem to be saying Old Timer is that any stock with C3 on it will fit down any route cleared for C1 rolling stock. That can't be true unless some C1 labeled stock also fits down some routes not cleared for C1 (as there are routes, such as some of the ValleyLines, where the only ATW units that can be used are 150s and Pacers).

If C3 and C4 do equal C1, is there a map/list anywhere of C1 cleared routes which would therefore take any stock labeled C1, C3 or C4? (there is of course some stock, like I think 166/165, which aren't labeled C-anything and hence I presume have to be specificly cleared for each route they run on).

Also, just to confirm, mark 4s were C4 but are now labeled C3 instead because it has been decided they won't be fitted with tilt gear?

 

[Old Timer]

Unless I've misunderstood, what you seem to be saying Old Timer is that any stock with C3 on it will fit down any route cleared for C1 rolling stock. That can't be true unless some C1 labeled stock also fits down some routes not cleared for C1 (as there are routes, such as some of the ValleyLines, where the only ATW units that can be used are 150s and Pacers).

If C3 and C4 do equal C1, is there a map/list anywhere of C1 cleared routes which would therefore take any stock labeled C1, C3 or C4? (there is of course some stock, like I think 166/165, which aren't labeled C-anything and hence I presume have to be specificly cleared for each route they run on).

Also, just to confirm, mark 4s were C4 but are now labeled C3 instead because it has been decided they won't be fitted with tilt gear?

C1 is the former BR standard rolling stock gauge and applied to all lines where there were passenger train operations, EXCEPT that there were/are one or two lines which had restrictions. Think for example of the Tonbridge line which has special rolling stock, and the NLL as was which required bars to be placed outside the door droplights.

Mk 3 rolling stock has a longer body however the end throw of the vehicles is reduced by the fact that the ends are tapered in comparison to Mk 1 rolling stock to account for this. Because the vehicle remains within C1 gauge then in theory it should pass over any C1 cleared route. The practice historically however has been to undertake a gauging survey and positively "clear" C3 routes.

The Mk 4 rolling stock is no longer labelled I believe, in fact I believe that C3 is now either not shown or is to be removed from rolling stock in the future to avoid confusion.

Mk3-based EMUs were classified C3, and again were route cleared.

As I said gauging is a complex subject and very difficult to simplify.

 

[dubscottie]

That is rubbish! 377's along with many other types of commuter stock (including 150's) have shorter BUT WIDER carriages to allow for 3x2 seating and/or increased standing room and have the C1 profile. Nothing to do with southern loading gauge. Remember 171's (which are identical to 170's exept the couplers) work over the same lines as 377's.

Also 142's are C1 not C3.

Class 150,455.456 etc are the SAME WIDTH as a Mk3 but the same length as a Mk1. 377's 450's etc are built the same.. There is still platforms and curves longer trains would not get past.

I have a very good article by Roger Ford in a Modern Railways of 1985ish on the subject of the class 150/317/455 and the loading gauge and why they are shorter than a standard Mk3.

Over a period of time most of the routes have been upgraded to take larger trains (ie class 171), but most of the Southern still has restrictions. In old Platform 5 books Mk3's were marked if they had short swing links.. Know why that was? Give you a clue.. The Southern Region..