HS4Air would link Heathrow with the massive population in the south east, with a simple start of journey at Ashford and a second pickup at Gatwick (useful for Brighton, Sussex, etc). Very useful to bring people into Heathrow without the need for a car.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Linking UK airports by rail
- Thread starter martin butler
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
After all of the HS2 problems, the chances of getting planning and budget approval to build another high speed rail line through the home counties is approximately zero point zero.
HS1 to Paddington or Farringdon is already a fast journey. After Southern rail access it'd be one change at Waterloo (East). The starting point is already high. The improvement offered by HS4Air is far too marginal to justify the capex.
Brighton to Heathrow is already easily done with one change. No need to spend £20 billion plus to do it.
HS4Air spends a ton of money making air travel more convenient when it could be spent on improving non-climate-destructive public transport. Short distance air travel at the current rate cannot continue.
Obviously it would be great to encourage mode shift on airport journeys from car to train, but if the method of doing so encourages more air travel then it isn’t a net positive.
With limited funds, far greater societal benefit will come from making the train a more attractive option for journeys across the UK as well as into Europe, and also improving public transport in general, because if someone needs a car to get around their destination then they’re much more likely to just take their own car there.
Obviously it would be great to encourage mode shift on airport journeys from car to train, but if the method of doing so encourages more air travel then it isn’t a net positive.
With limited funds, far greater societal benefit will come from making the train a more attractive option for journeys across the UK as well as into Europe, and also improving public transport in general, because if someone needs a car to get around their destination then they’re much more likely to just take their own car there.
Transilien
Member
Is the plan with the southern access is to run trains from Waterloo to Heathrow?
Yes.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Probably also extend the Elizabeth Line to Staines and use the HEx paths to run a through service from Paddington and OOC via Heathrow to somewhere on the South Western.
Mgameing123
Member
Not necessarily no. It can do the opposite because right now there are many people who fly to places where there already is good train connections because they live closer to the airport than St. Pancras so train will never be a good option.
But there are obviously people who will need to fly no matter what like if you’re going to places like New York. We need to encourage these people to take the train rather than car.
Yes destinations on the Thameslink are a single change away from Heathrow. But that’s only for the places served by Thameslink.
There are many towns in the South East which aren’t served by Thameslink. Also when your travelling to an airport and have a lot of luggage with you, no change is better than any change.
Is HS4Air a project that should be high on the priority list? No I don’t think so but the proposal should definitely be taken seriously because I can see a lot of benefits from a service like this.
The Planner
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 15 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 19,689
Change at Faringdon onto the Elizabeth line?
How do you get from HS1 to Farringdon?
The Planner
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 15 Apr 2008
- Messages
- 19,689
Thameslink at St Pancras? All of this is easily found out by looking at a map?
flitwickbeds
Member
- Joined
- 19 Apr 2017
- Messages
- 771
St Pancras is a horrible place to do a change of trains, especially for just one stop 3 minutes later.
Between the Southeastern high speed platforms and St P it’s a breeze.
zwk500
Veteran Member
You can walk from St Pancras to Farringdon easily enough if you're that bothered about the station environment.
10 mins on the Circle line. Train every five mins.
Howardh
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2011
- Messages
- 9,782
I checked Heathrow to Stratford thinking with Elizabeth Line (??) it may be faster for me to fly from Manchester Airport to Heathrow, then take the train to Stratford - but if memory serves every trip requires a change, and sometimes a long wait, meaning I'm better going Manchester to Euston, tube to Tottenham Ct Rd and Liz Line from there.
Basically, if my memory was correct, I find it bizarre that part of East London doesn't connect directly with Heathrow!
Up here in the north, Liverpool Airport should have a rail link, or even a direct bus to Parkway station; they are missing out on many - like myself - who are fed up with Manchester. Indeed while it was still a commercial airport, Blackpool has an easier rail connect than Liverpool!!
Basically, if my memory was correct, I find it bizarre that part of East London doesn't connect directly with Heathrow!
Up here in the north, Liverpool Airport should have a rail link, or even a direct bus to Parkway station; they are missing out on many - like myself - who are fed up with Manchester. Indeed while it was still a commercial airport, Blackpool has an easier rail connect than Liverpool!!
zwk500
Veteran Member
The majority of Sussex and Surrey have no more than 1 change to get to Farringdon, making Heathrow no more than 2 changes away.
Also if you live in Sussex and Surrey you will fly from Gatwick unless you absolutely have to, and if flying from Heathrow have options of a lift (or organised group travel), taxi, or coach from Woking if changing via Farringdon is going to be such an imposition.
Noting also that for the majority of Surrey and Sussex to get to HS4Air, they would seem to need to travel to Gatwick or Heathrow Airports first! Or are you planning stations at Horsham and Guildford as well?
It's a frequent, short and easy interchange.
With HS4Air, passengers from Dover and Canterbury would still have to change at Ashford. The Heathrow station would most likely be a Newark-style parkway (there's no room around / under the terminals) so a connecting journey is still required to the terminal. From Farringdon you are taken directly to all terminals. You 'typical' Dover - Heathrow CTA journey would still take 2 changes, no better than St Pancras + Farringdon. HS4Aair would be no good for North Kent Coast.
It's debatable if it achieves any improvements at all. It's not a £20bn investment opportunity - far from it.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Not to mention the far cheaper Southern Access makes Heathrow accessible with one change at Clapham Junction for virtually all of Sussex, and all of South Eastern Main Line accessible via Waterloo (East), making HS4Air totally redundant. The London facing element of Southern Access is relatively cheap - it's the Woking facing bit that's expensive because it needs tunnelling under Egham.
Last edited:
zwk500
Veteran Member
No it isn't, because you have to deal with every level crossing between Staines and Barnes.
Those ones actually can cope (you only need to send 2 extra tph via Richmond and 2 extra via Hounslow) - it's the Egham ones that can't.
The most charitable suggestion I have is to look at where an airports border control could also be used by a train. This is difficult, the proposed Manchester Airport HS2 station won’t do it. This doesn’t even take into account juxtaposed controls, but it’s a start.
No, Maidenhead and Slough benefit from that.
That means a train can bring delays from one line to another. We already see this with Luton to Gatwick, and this is one reason why we might not see more.
No. The government will ask Heathrow to build western and southern access as part of the third runway permission, and Heathrow will try to say no, then we will learn their target dates [edit:reworded]. A next step might be letting the local population know where the two tunnels’ headhouses will be.
Last edited:
No, but it's a much more developed concept than HS4Air.
Home - Heathrow Southern Railway
heathrowrail.com
It was estimated at £1.7bn in 2016/17 - even factoring even inflation is far cheaper than HS4Air.
The change is as simple as getting off anywhere in the core and waiting for a few minutes. However I’m very glad this was enough to put you off one of the most absurdly wasteful flights that exists in the UK.
zwk500
Veteran Member
The answer to this is 'nowhere' because of where the actual border control is located within the flow of passengers through the terminal building.
When departing, you show your boarding pass to get through security and your passport at the gate for the Airline to check.
When arriving, you pass from the gate through passport control then into baggage reclaim, and then through customs, before reaching the arrivals hall.
If designing the airport from Day 1, it would be relatively simple to design a lower level for the railway with a big passenger terminal underneath the arrivals hall, so that secure staff-only access stairs could be provided between the airport and railway terminals to the security, customs or immigration areas/offices as required. Although in reality they'd likely function mostly independently because each should be busy enough.
Howardh
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 May 2011
- Messages
- 9,782
Heathrow is generally for connections, and hopefully Hs2 might negate the need for MAN/LHR in the future. But from here (Bolton) to get to the south coast one has to navigate through, and change in, London which adds time and inconvenience with baggage (and cost?) whereas at least changing at Manchester is the same station.
Billions spent on Crossrail, Thameslink, new tube lines in the past but never a NW/SE direct link!! Clearly I wouldn't fly MAN/LHR to get to the south coast, although I have (and consider it in the future) used MAN/SOU to get to Isle of Wight, Bournemouth etc simply because the cross country trains are so slow, expensive and cramped. Could go via London I suppose, but this is speculative discussion so I speculate we need better cross-country trains to take people (like me) away from airplanes!!
- Status