Linking the Midlands again

[Failed Unit]

One of the losses of Central trains was the loss of many of the cross midlands services.

Now TPE and Northern have set a precidence at setting up new services to extract other operators revenue - I wonder if other areas could follow suit?

Remember in a few years time we will have lots of fairly decent DMUs looking for work such as the 222s and the 15x

XC
Cardiff - Nottingham, extend it to Lincoln to recreate the CT service (although extremely difficult to path at Newark)

EMR
Grimsby Town - Leicester, extend it to Birmingham (again recreate the CT service). they should be able to get a decent share of XC revenue to make it pay and again gives parts of the East Midlands a direct service to Birmingham again.
London St Pancras - Nottingham - Liverpool Lime Street. (or via Derby)
Give the service away then instantly compete against it, with the bonus of connecting Leicester -Manchester.

Great Anglia
Ipswich - Nottingham / Derby
Extend the Peterborough terminators to the Midlands via Stamford

Doesn't need to be hourly of course, no idea if Nottingham - Ipswich has demands, but it used to have a direct service in BR days. Many of these services were broken up by franchising. I am sure many others exist which can't be any more daft then Liverpool - Edinburgh via Leeds which is passed.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

One of the losses of Central trains was the loss of many of the cross midlands services.

Now TPE and Northern have set a precidence at setting up new services to extract other operators revenue - I wonder if other areas could follow suit?

Remember in a few years time we will have lots of fairly decent DMUs looking for work such as the 222s and the 15x

XC
Cardiff - Nottingham, extend it to Lincoln to recreate the CT service (although extremely difficult to path at Newark)

EMR
Grimsby Town - Leicester, extend it to Birmingham (again recreate the CT service). they should be able to get a decent share of XC revenue to make it pay and again gives parts of the East Midlands a direct service to Birmingham again.
London St Pancras - Nottingham - Liverpool Lime Street. (or via Derby)
Give the service away then instantly compete against it, with the bonus of connecting Leicester -Manchester.

Great Anglia
Ipswich - Nottingham / Derby
Extend the Peterborough terminators to the Midlands via Stamford

Doesn't need to be hourly of course, no idea if Nottingham - Ipswich has demands, but it used to have a direct service in BR days. Many of these services were broken up by franchising. I am sure many others exist which can't be any more daft then Liverpool - Edinburgh via Leeds which is passed.

I would not extend both Cardiff-Nottingham to Lincoln and Grimsby-Leicester to Birmingham. I would do the latter with a new shuttle between Leicester and Nottingham serving local stations to speed the service up.

London St Pancras via Derby to Liverpool Lime Street Really? Either Manchester or Leeds would be better.

 

[The Planner]

Because extending and joining up services has worked really well recently hasnt it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Because extending and joining up services has worked really well recently hasnt it.

It seems to be ok in some areas and not others.
Ok to run Thameslink. Not ok to have services cross the Midlands. So we do have some double standards.

i do remember when Central trains did run between the East and West Midlands. Yes we had some bad delays (but 10 minutes turn around at the ends didn’t help). They made the claim about importing delays- but that was more lack of hot spare at Nottingham if things went wrong.

I know London Midlands timetable is a good display of why not to do it. But yet breaking of cross midlands journeys has not helped passengers. Travel from Birmingham- Lincoln. 15 minutes late into Nottingham means 1 hour late into Lincoln following the break of the service.

I am not expecting to see an increase in on time arrivals on the Nottingham- Liverpool service once it is split. But once it is gone it never returns and the passengers who did use (which may be not large in numbers) are on the motorways

 

[Meerkat]

Ok to run Thameslink. Not ok to have services cross the Midlands. So we do have some double standards.

Thameslink runs loads of trains, carrying vast numbers of people so the timetables were written around it. Squeezing infrequent long services through set timetables prioritised in other directions is a different matter altogether.
Thameslink also conflicts with services running in roughly the same directions, not multiple services trying to cross from all over the place.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thameslink runs loads of trains, carrying vast numbers of people so the timetables were written around it. Squeezing infrequent long services through set timetables prioritised in other directions is a different matter altogether.
Thameslink also conflicts with services running in roughly the same directions, not multiple services trying to cross from all over the place.

When you look at Central Trains initail time-table it was as follows:

Stansted Airport - Liverpool Lime Street via Birmingham (Sensible split as a lot of DMU running under wires)
Grimsby - Aberystwyth / Chester (Split at Birmingham for franchises purposes (Wales franchise), Split again at Leicester (for franchise mapping)
Nottingham - Cardiff
Nottingham - Hereford (Split at Birmingham - franchise mapping)
Skegness - Manchester Airport (congestion so it was said - Manchester Airport had no passengers but the other 2 halves ramained in East Midlands)
Nottingham - Coventry (WCML upgrade)
Norwich - Liverpool (To be split up at Nottingham)

Most of these were not split up because of poor timekeeping they were split because DfT wanted to remap the franchise. Crossing Birmingham actually had benefits in platform occupency. They reliability was not that much different to what it is total. Grimsby - Aberystwth / Chester was a bit too far but once it was cut back to Birmingham it was perfectly fine. I don't see why these long distance service were such a performance risk. Nottingham - Liverpool will still have problems in the Manchester and Sheffield area. spltting it is not going to remove these.

I do see your side of the argument but where should the line be drawn. Why was Grimsby - Birmingham so bad (conflicts at Newark, Nottingham and Liecester) but Cleethorpes - Manchester good (Conflicts at Doncaster, Sheffield and Stockport-Manchester) Why wasn't this split at Doncaster to prevent the train crossing the ECML on the flat? We seem to be very inconsistent with this kind of thing.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

When you look at Central Trains initail time-table it was as follows:

Stansted Airport - Liverpool Lime Street via Birmingham (Sensible split as a lot of DMU running under wires)
Grimsby - Aberystwyth / Chester (Split at Birmingham for franchises purposes (Wales franchise), Split again at Leicester (for franchise mapping)
Nottingham - Cardiff
Nottingham - Hereford (Split at Birmingham - franchise mapping)
Skegness - Manchester Airport (congestion so it was said - Manchester Airport had no passengers but the other 2 halves ramained in East Midlands)
Nottingham - Coventry (WCML upgrade)
Norwich - Liverpool (To be split up at Nottingham)

Most of these were not split up because of poor timekeeping they were split because DfT wanted to remap the franchise. Crossing Birmingham actually had benefits in platform occupency. They reliability was not that much different to what it is total. Grimsby - Aberystwth / Chester was a bit too far but once it was cut back to Birmingham it was perfectly fine. I don't see why these long distance service were such a performance risk. Nottingham - Liverpool will still have problems in the Manchester and Sheffield area. spltting it is not going to remove these.

I do see your side of the argument but where should the line be drawn. Why was Grimsby - Birmingham so bad (conflicts at Newark, Nottingham and Liecester) but Cleethorpes - Manchester good (Conflicts at Doncaster, Sheffield and Stockport-Manchester) Why wasn't this split at Doncaster to prevent the train crossing the ECML on the flat? We seem to be very inconsistent with this kind of thing.

There is a lot of demand between Manchester and Cleethorpes. The DfT did propose splitting the route at Sheffield, Doncaster would be a stupid place to split it as there is a lot of demand between Sheffield and Cleethorpes, but the plan was scrapped due to huge objections. It’s a popular service. Grimsby to Birmingham (as it was) was axed in 1990’s and cut to Lincoln due to it being unnecessary to run to Grimsby and it was easier to change at Lincoln. But the service was again cut in the early 2000’s back to Nottingham again likely to have been reliability. Replaced by a Nottingham to Grimsby service which was also axed in 2008 to run as a Leicester to Lincoln service and a Newark to Grimsby service as at present. It will eventually change to Leicester to Grimsby Town and Newark to Lincoln. Lincoln could do with a Birmingham service but the DfT has blocked EMR from running to Birmingham. I suspect remapping also has a lot to do with why Birmingham to Lincoln was axed

 

[Failed Unit]

There is a lot of demand between Manchester and Cleethorpes. The DfT did propose splitting the route at Sheffield, Doncaster would be a stupid place to split it as there is a lot of demand between Sheffield and Cleethorpes, but the plan was scrapped due to huge objections. It’s a popular service.

So was Grimsby - Birmingham but they still split it up. (under BR). Some may be too young to remember 150/1 (with trolleys) along with the 151s and 154. It often was full.

Grimsby - London was actaully cheaper via Lincoln, but when the 153s were introduced they made the fare via Doncaster the same to try and reduce the overcrowding on the Lincoln route (coupled with removing a lot of the connections). I suspect a lot of the people that used to travel direct between Grimsby and Derby / Birmingham now change at Sheffield for a Cross-country service.

I am not saying that they should split Cleethorpes - Manchester, what I am saying is the conflict caused by it is actaully bigger than the route they actually split up. When BR was privatised they created Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport (on regional express) and removed Cleethorpes and Lincolnshire (from regional express). The two routes have had different fortunes since. The Cleethorpes - Manchester as grown, the Grimsby - Lincoln (and onwards) was stuggled becuase it doesn't go anywhere useful and connections are poor to get somewhere useful.

How many services now snake accross the ECML at Doncaster? 5 per hour?

1. Cleethorpes - Manchester
2. Hull - Sheffield
3. Scunthorpe - Sheffield
4. London - Leeds (x2)

surely this is harder to path then the East Midlands / West Midlands services that already exist at the key junctions

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So was Grimsby - Birmingham but they still split it up. (under BR). Some may be too young to remember 150/1 (with trolleys) along with the 151s and 154. It often was full.

Grimsby - London was actaully cheaper via Lincoln, but when the 153s were introduced they made the fare via Doncaster the same to try and reduce the overcrowding on the Lincoln route (coupled with removing a lot of the connections). I suspect a lot of the people that used to travel direct between Grimsby and Derby / Birmingham now change at Sheffield for a Cross-country service.

I am not saying that they should split Cleethorpes - Manchester, what I am saying is the conflict caused by it is actaully bigger than the route they actually split up. When BR was privatised they created Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport (on regional express) and removed Cleethorpes and Lincolnshire (from regional express). The two routes have had different fortunes since. The Cleethorpes - Manchester as grown, the Grimsby - Lincoln (and onwards) was stuggled becuase it doesn't go anywhere useful and connections are poor to get somewhere useful.

How many services now snake accross the ECML at Doncaster? 5 per hour?

1. Cleethorpes - Manchester
2. Hull - Sheffield
3. Scunthorpe - Sheffield
4. London - Leeds (x2)

surely this is harder to path then the East Midlands / West Midlands services that already exist at the key junctions

NOT True. It already existed since 1993 when Manchester Airport opened just extended the existing service from Piccadilly. Newark Crossing may be a factor by crossing over the ECML on route where as via Doncaster it stops at Doncaster then crosses over when leaving the station to Sheffield/Cleethorpes.

 

[Ianno87]

NOT True. It already existed since 1993 when Manchester Airport opened just extended the existing service from Piccadilly. Newark Crossing may be a factor by crossing over the ECML on route where as via Doncaster it stops at Doncaster then crosses over when leaving the station to Sheffield/Cleethorpes.

Not quite. Cleethorpes-Airport was introduced about 1995, not when the Airport branch opened. But yes, was very late BR rather than the privatised railway.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Not quite. Cleethorpes-Airport was introduced about 1995, not when the Airport branch opened. But yes, was very late BR rather than the privatised railway.

Right, but it was just an extension of Manchester Piccadilly-Cleethorpes service right?

Grimsby-Nottingham has been changed multiple times as I stated. Birmingham-Lincoln was axed in the 2000's and replaced with Birmingham-Nottingham and Nottingham to Grimsby from 2004 until it was changed to Leicester to Lincoln and Newark to Grimsby.

Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service pattern has remained untouched. Ok, hourly stops at Habrough now exist but has not been subject to complex remapping as the Grimsby-Birmingham route has which is now two separate franchises.

 

[Failed Unit]

NOT True. It already existed since 1993 when Manchester Airport opened just extended the existing service from Piccadilly. Newark Crossing may be a factor by crossing over the ECML on route where as via Doncaster it stops at Doncaster then crosses over when leaving the station to Sheffield/Cleethorpes.

The Cleethorpes- Manchester Piccadilly service started off peak in 1992. Before then it was Cleethorpes- Sheffield.

However I would be very surprised if snaking across the East Coast mid line on a ladder (from a standing start) is quicker then crossing at speed on the level.

But that is not what I am debating. I am interested why at Newark they have restricted the crossing of the mainline to 2 parallel moves per hour but at Doncaster we have 5 from a standing start. I have frequently had a signal check at Doncaster on an express to let one of these moves happen.

I fail to understand why blocking the ECML is ok at Doncaster but not at Newark. Does Scunthorpe- Sheffield really need to be linked (on the local service) is demand on that greater then between Lincoln and Nottingham? Of course we can’t answer that. Not questioning the value of Cleethorpes- Manchester but just interested why Cleethorpes - Birmingham via Nottingham was considered unacceptable when they both cross the same pinch points.

 

[Failed Unit]

Right, but it was just an extension of Manchester Piccadilly-Cleethorpes service right?

Grimsby-Nottingham has been changed multiple times as I stated. Birmingham-Lincoln was axed in the 2000's and replaced with Birmingham-Nottingham and Nottingham to Grimsby from 2004 until it was changed to Leicester to Lincoln and Newark to Grimsby.

Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport service pattern has remained untouched. Ok, hourly stops at Habrough now exist but has not been subject to complex remapping as the Grimsby-Birmingham route has which is now two separate franchises.

You may not remember the timetables in the late 1980s early 1990s.

But basically it was:

Cleethorpes - Birmingham via Nottingham and Derby (calling both newark stations)
Cleethorpes- Sheffield (Scunthorpe)
Cleethorpes- Sheffield (Brigg 3 per day)
Cleethorpes- London (1 train)

Some diagrams inter worked.

In the past cleethorpes- Manchester existed but I can’t remember it in the DMU era until the 158s were introduced. The peak services continued to go to Nottingham via Derby leaving Cleethorpes-Sheffield in the peak. I remember the service getting introduced as it was a big step up at the same time BR seriously downgraded the Lincoln route introducing the 153s and sending it to Newark Northgate with invalid connections. A lot of the connections to Coventry (as Lincoln - Birmingham was list at the same time didn’t work). The message was clear all Grimsby traffic should go via Sheffield and the other line was just a local line serving Lincoln with no value to the rest of the network. Central trains did many things as stated above by your good self.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

The Cleethorpes- Manchester Piccadilly service started off peak in 1992. Before then it was Cleethorpes- Sheffield.

However I would be very surprised if snaking across the East Coast mid line on a ladder (from a standing start) is quicker then crossing at speed on the level.

But that is not what I am debating. I am interested why at Newark they have restricted the crossing of the mainline to 2 parallel moves per hour but at Doncaster we have 5 from a standing start. I have frequently had a signal check at Doncaster on an express to let one of these moves happen.

I fail to understand why blocking the ECML is ok at Doncaster but not at Newark. Does Scunthorpe- Sheffield really need to be linked (on the local service) is demand on that greater then between Lincoln and Nottingham? Of course we can’t answer that. Not questioning the value of Cleethorpes- Manchester but just interested why Cleethorpes - Birmingham via Nottingham was considered unacceptable when they both cross the same pinch points.

At Doncaster, there are up to 3 platforms to choose from so trains approaching Doncaster from Sheffield can use platforms 8 or 4 and trains from Cleethorpes use 3B and wait until the path is clear as I believe there is extra timing at Doncaster unlike Sheffield or Stockport I believe. At Newark 6 trains per hour cross on the ECML and only 1 east-west and from 2021 I believe its 7.5 trains per hour on ECML and 1 E-W connection plus the 1 train per hour (1/2 by LNER 1/2 by EMR) between Newark and Lincoln which use the crossing each hour. Thats 9.5 trains per hour (from 2021, currently 8 trains per hour over the crossing) over the crossing compared with 5 trains per hour at Doncaster, and i believe Scunthorpe to Sheffield is not existing it is Scunthorpe-Doncaster and Doncaster-Sheffield if I am correct.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

You may not remember the timetables in the late 1980s early 1990s.

But basically it was:

Cleethorpes - Birmingham via Nottingham and Derby (calling both newark stations)
Cleethorpes- Sheffield (Scunthorpe)
Cleethorpes- Sheffield (Brigg 3 per day)
Cleethorpes- London (1 train)

Some diagrams inter worked.

In the past cleethorpes- Manchester existed but I can’t remember it in the DMU era until the 158s were introduced. The peak services continued to go to Nottingham via Derby leaving Cleethorpes-Sheffield in the peak. I remember the service getting introduced as it was a big step up at the same time BR seriously downgraded the Lincoln route introducing the 153s and sending it to Newark Northgate with invalid connections. A lot of the connections to Coventry (as Lincoln - Birmingham was list at the same time didn’t work). The message was clear all Grimsby traffic should go via Sheffield and the other line was just a local line serving Lincoln with no value to the rest of the network. Central trains did many things as stated above by your good self.

Thanks. That was until 1992 wasn't it? Birmingham was axed in 1992 don't know whether it was regular but I think it was, what I heard anyway, twice a day and not full regular service, Cleethorpes-Sheffield via Brigg axed (apart from Saturday) in 1992 and Cleethorpes-London axed in 1992.

 

[Failed Unit]

Thanks. That was until 1992 wasn't it? Birmingham was axed in 1992 don't know whether it was regular but I think it was, what I heard anyway, twice a day and not full regular service, Cleethorpes-Sheffield via Brigg axed (apart from Saturday) in 1992 and Cleethorpes-London axed in 1992.

Correct, but I think the HST survived until May 1993. I think butchering the regional service and scrapping the HST would be too much to take at once. I remember at a public meeting someone did point out that last year we lost Birmingham has BR got any commitment to Lincolnshire? It then got worse in 1994 (5?) as they moved the last evening service to 1952. They also cut the Sunday service to Summer only. (Including Lincoln - Nottingham). Central trains removed another service after privatisation which I believe makes Grimsby - Lincoln one of the few lines in the UK to have a worse service now then before privatisation.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Correct, but I think the HST survived until May 1993. I think butchering the regional service and scrapping the HST would be too much to take at once. I remember at a public meeting someone did point out that last year we lost Birmingham has BR got any commitment to Lincolnshire? It then got worse in 1994 (5?) as they moved the last evening service to 1952. They also cut the Sunday service to Summer only. (Including Lincoln - Nottingham). Central trains removed another service after privatisation which I believe makes Grimsby - Lincoln one of the few lines in the UK to have a worse service now then before privatisation.

Very helpful, was there ever an hourly service between Lincoln and Grimsby at any point. Luckily though we get a two-hourly service to Leicester (replacing Newark-Grimsby) from December 2020, an hourly service to Leicester from 2021 and a Sunday service to Barton and Lincoln from 2021.

 

[Failed Unit]

Very helpful, was there ever an hourly service between Lincoln and Grimsby at any point. Luckily though we get a two-hourly service to Leicester (replacing Newark-Grimsby) from December 2020, an hourly service to Leicester from 2021 and a Sunday service to Barton and Lincoln from 2021.

Not all day.

In the late 1980s

Barnetby - Newark Northgate shuttles (operates by a 150/2) existed with decent connections. Sometimes I regret throwing away old timetables. We also had a few class 114 operated Cleethorpes- Lincoln services. It probably was the best service ever operated on the line. But it was thinned out as the 114s were retired and the 150/2 was needed elsewhere.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Not all day.

In the late 1980s

Barnetby - Newark Northgate shuttles (operates by a 150/2) existed with decent connections. Sometimes I regret throwing away old timetables. We also had a few class 114 operated Cleethorpes- Lincoln services. It probably was the best service ever operated on the line. But it was thinned out as the 114s were retired and the 150/2 was needed elsewhere.

Ah so it was hourly until when? At least we get an hourly service back all the way from Grimsby Town to Leicester.

 

[Failed Unit]

Ah so it was hourly until when? At least we get an hourly service back all the way from Grimsby Town to Leicester.

Yep. Pretty much all day. Just odd times missing such as a 1240 departure then nothing until 1420. It was 13 trains per day operating between 0500 and 2000 towards Lincoln and 0753 and 2253. towards Lincoln (yes it was really that late back then. No use if you worked in Grimsby). All stock was stored at Cleethorpes so the first journey to Cleethorpes was a return.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Yep. Pretty much all day. Just odd times missing such as a 1240 departure then nothing until 1420. It was 13 trains per day operating between 0500 and 2000 towards Lincoln and 0753 and 2253. towards Lincoln (yes it was really that late back then. No use if you worked in Grimsby). All stock was stored at Cleethorpes so the first journey to Cleethorpes was a return.

I suspect with an hourly service to Leicester to be introduced from 2021 we get some of the links we lost in 1990's back. But an attractive option might be in the future to run it to Birmingham Moor Street via Bordesley Chords I found a Midlands Connect report: https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/media/1571/midlands-rail-hub-summary-report-final-june-2019.pdf page 14:



Shows plans for a Moor Street to Nottingham service and a Lincoln-Leicester service and Leicester to Coventry could this be combined with the Leicester to Moor Street service and run as a Birmingham-Grimsby Town service.

 

[Failed Unit]

I suspect with an hourly service to Leicester to be introduced from 2021 we get some of the links we lost in 1990's back. But an attractive option might be in the future to run it to Birmingham Moor Street via Bordesley Chords I found a Midlands Connect report: https://www.midlandsconnect.uk/media/1571/midlands-rail-hub-summary-report-final-june-2019.pdf page 14:

View attachment 72658

Shows plans for a Moor Street to Nottingham service and a Lincoln-Leicester service and Leicester to Coventry could this be combined with the Leicester to Moor Street service and run as a Birmingham-Grimsby Town service.

Very interesting. For me Moor street would be fine. Derby could be used to change on XC if needed.

it is amazing how we have gone backwards in some areas. Nottingham to Coventry was always popular under BR to get to Oxford and Reading but avoiding Birmingham.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Very interesting. For me Moor street would be fine. Derby could be used to change on XC if needed.

it is amazing how we have gone backwards in some areas. Nottingham to Coventry was always popular under BR to get to Oxford and Reading but avoiding Birmingham.

I think the plan is for a second hourly service between Lincoln and Nottingham maybe running a Lincoln to Coventry service and a Grimsby Town to Leicester service (which could run to Birmingham Moor Street)

LNER is planning to reinstate a Cleethorpes to London service too.

 

[Bevan Price]

You may not remember the timetables in the late 1980s early 1990s.

But basically it was:

Cleethorpes - Birmingham via Nottingham and Derby (calling both newark stations)
Cleethorpes- Sheffield (Scunthorpe)
Cleethorpes- Sheffield (Brigg 3 per day)
Cleethorpes- London (1 train)

Some diagrams inter worked.

In the past cleethorpes- Manchester existed but I can’t remember it in the DMU era until the 158s were introduced. The peak services continued to go to Nottingham via Derby leaving Cleethorpes-Sheffield in the peak. I remember the service getting introduced as it was a big step up at the same time BR seriously downgraded the Lincoln route introducing the 153s and sending it to Newark Northgate with invalid connections. A lot of the connections to Coventry (as Lincoln - Birmingham was list at the same time didn’t work). The message was clear all Grimsby traffic should go via Sheffield and the other line was just a local line serving Lincoln with no value to the rest of the network. Central trains did many things as stated above by your good self.

In the immediate pre-Sprinter era, there were loco-hauled services, usually Class 31s, running roughly hourly between Liverpool or Manchester to Sheffield. Some terminated at Sheffield, but others continued to Doncaster, then alternately to either Cleethorpes or Hull.

 

[Sprinter107]

Those Nottingham to Hereford trains were very unreliable. I've just been checking my old drivers journals, and they very often turned into Nottingham to Ledbury, or Hereford to Derby trains. I remember having sit ins at Ledbury, because the passengers were so angry at yet another train being spun there.

 

[Mogz]

Blimey! I remember the Grimsby-Chester service! How long did it take end-to-end?

 

[tbtc]

There's a balance when it comes to these things - trying to provide direct trains on sufficient long distance flows whilst keeping services reliable enough for everyday passengers making everyday journeys (and the balance between a "turn up and go" service that provides simple reliable balanced departures over shorter distances with the "National Express Coaches" market of linking far away places with a direct service which might be handy for annual holidays) ... but... St Pancras - Nottingham - Liverpool... maybe not... I could see the argument for some links being brought back or introduced but let's talk about services that would be of practical use... why do people always suggest exotic long distance combinations rather than the kind of journeys that people might use regularly for work or shopping?

If you want to talk Lincolnshire then why do people not suggest giving Boston a direct service to Lincoln/ Peterborough? That'd be of significantly more use to everyday passengers than some hundred mile plus combination like Grimsby to Birmingham (or the vanity of London links).

Elsewhere in the midlands, Leicester and Coventry are two large places with no direct train service, but I suppose it's more fun to suggest random linking far away places like Ipswich to Derby?

Mansfield could benefit with a link to the ECML at Retford, but maybe that's too "simple" and unremarkable for a thread like this?

I know London Midlands timetable is a good display of why not to do it. But yet breaking of cross midlands journeys has not helped passengers. Travel from Birmingham- Lincoln. 15 minutes late into Nottingham means 1 hour late into Lincoln following the break of the service.

I am not expecting to see an increase in on time arrivals on the Nottingham- Liverpool service once it is split. But once it is gone it never returns and the passengers who did use (which may be not large in numbers) are on the motorways

Breaking of journeys has not helped the small number of people who made those journeys (like from Grimsby all the way to Birmingham). But it has helped the larger number of people who do shorter journeys, typical everyday commuting/shopping journeys of under an hour.

How many services now snake accross the ECML at Doncaster? 5 per hour?

1. Cleethorpes - Manchester
2. Hull - Sheffield
3. Scunthorpe - Sheffield
4. London - Leeds (x2)

Does Scunthorpe- Sheffield really need to be linked (on the local service) is demand on that greater then between Lincoln and Nottingham? Of course we can’t answer that.

There is no Scunthorpe - Sheffield local service.

It was replaced by a Hull - Sheffield local service a year or two ago and then cut to a Hull - Doncaster service and a Doncaster - Sheffield service.

I'm not sure that London to Leeds really "crosses" the ECML though - it *is* part of the ECML

But that is not what I am debating. I am interested why at Newark they have restricted the crossing of the mainline to 2 parallel moves per hour but at Doncaster we have 5 from a standing start

Possibly because ECML services at passing the flat junction at Newark at line speed, so there's not much space in the timetable, but a lot of services stop at Doncaster so it's easier to path services?

(as well as the fact that population density in the A46 corridor is nothing like the M18 corridor, so there's a lot less demand for longer distance services - e.g. Lincoln to Nottingham is about forty miles with nowhere of over 30,000 population in between - contrast that with Scunthorpe/Goole to Sheffield which is a roughly similar distance to Lincoln to Nottingham but has the much larger Doncaster/ Rotherham in between, as all as other towns)

 

[Failed Unit]

I would dispute the ppm was that bad when the journey was complete. Lincoln - Birmingham is not an unreasonable journey. Lincoln - Leicester is fairy useless. Not many stay on beyond Nottingham.

Lincoln - Boston also used to exist. But it is hard to justify more that 1tph from Sleaford - Boston (even if it did used to run it filled in gaps in the Nottingham- Skegness service back in the 1980s)

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

There's a balance when it comes to these things - trying to provide direct trains on sufficient long distance flows whilst keeping services reliable enough for everyday passengers making everyday journeys (and the balance between a "turn up and go" service that provides simple reliable balanced departures over shorter distances with the "National Express Coaches" market of linking far away places with a direct service which might be handy for annual holidays) ... but... St Pancras - Nottingham - Liverpool... maybe not... I could see the argument for some links being brought back or introduced but let's talk about services that would be of practical use... why do people always suggest exotic long distance combinations rather than the kind of journeys that people might use regularly for work or shopping?

If you want to talk Lincolnshire then why do people not suggest giving Boston a direct service to Lincoln/ Peterborough? That'd be of significantly more use to everyday passengers than some hundred mile plus combination like Grimsby to Birmingham (or the vanity of London links).

Elsewhere in the midlands, Leicester and Coventry are two large places with no direct train service, but I suppose it's more fun to suggest random linking far away places like Ipswich to Derby?

Mansfield could benefit with a link to the ECML at Retford, but maybe that's too "simple" and unremarkable for a thread like this?



Breaking of journeys has not helped the small number of people who made those journeys (like from Grimsby all the way to Birmingham). But it has helped the larger number of people who do shorter journeys, typical everyday commuting/shopping journeys of under an hour.





There is no Scunthorpe - Sheffield local service.

It was replaced by a Hull - Sheffield local service a year or two ago and then cut to a Hull - Doncaster service and a Doncaster - Sheffield service.

I'm not sure that London to Leeds really "crosses" the ECML though - it *is* part of the ECML



Possibly because ECML services at passing the flat junction at Newark at line speed, so there's not much space in the timetable, but a lot of services stop at Doncaster so it's easier to path services?

(as well as the fact that population density in the A46 corridor is nothing like the M18 corridor, so there's a lot less demand for longer distance services - e.g. Lincoln to Nottingham is about forty miles with nowhere of over 30,000 population in between - contrast that with Scunthorpe/Goole to Sheffield which is a roughly similar distance to Lincoln to Nottingham but has the much larger Doncaster/ Rotherham in between, as all as other towns)

I think a Lincoln to Skegness via Boston service would do well

 

[johnnychips]

I think a Lincoln to Skegness via Boston service would do well

Looks like it would take about 95 minutes compared with 110 minutes on the 56 bus.