Linguistic question - Welsh announcements

[Parallel]

Birmingham New Street and International are untranslated, as I recall. I don't think they use "Caerwysg" for Exeter in their announcements either.

They most certainly do use Caerwysg for Exeter. Plymouth is just 'Plymouth' though. The Welsh name for 'Bath Spa' is used too. Due to engineering works around Bristol Parkway, some trains will be diverted via Newport, and will feature trains to Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds and York northbound, and Penzance southbound. I'm not sure how much the Welsh announcer will actually be able to say but it'll be interesting to see if any Welsh versions are used.

 

[krus_aragon]

They most certainly do use Caerwysg for Exeter. Plymouth is just 'Plymouth' though. The Welsh name for 'Bath Spa' is used too. Due to engineering works around Bristol Parkway, some trains will be diverted via Newport, and will feature trains to Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds and York northbound, and Penzance southbound. I'm not sure how much the Welsh announcer will actually be able to say but it'll be interesting to see if any Welsh versions are used.

I stand corrected, then.

Plymouth literally translates as Aberplym in Welsh (and Cornish, I believe), but I can't recall every hearing the name used. Beyond Plymouth, if there's a Cornish name then it will (or can soon) have a Welsh name too.

The selection of English places that have Welsh names is interesting in its own right. Many are either in the Marches, the "Old North" (Cumbria, Northumbria) or in Devon and Cornwall, where Brythonic languages survived longest. Elsewhere, places with religious significance (cathedral cities) gained or retained Welsh names throughout the Middle Ages and beyond. Places that only became important during or after the industrial revolution (e.g. Birmingham) are less likely to have a Welsh name associated with them, though some have acquired one. (Welsh newspapers of the early 20th Century still referrred to Liverpool rather than the modern cambricisation Lerpwl.)

 

[headshot119]

Would I be right in guessing that you went through the education system in the 1990s/2000s? That would match up with my understanding of the change in policy toward grammar. (In five years of studying French at high school, we weren't taught any formal grammar for at least the first three years: it was all by absorbtion / polly-parrot.)

You would be right.

It's a shame really I scored very high in my foundation Welsh, I've always wondered what I'd have managed had I been entered for higher tier.

 

[Parallel]

I stand corrected, then.

Plymouth literally translates as Aberplym in Welsh (and Cornish, I believe), but I can't recall every hearing the name used. Beyond Plymouth, if there's a Cornish name then it will (or can soon) have a Welsh name too.

The selection of English places that have Welsh names is interesting in its own right. Many are either in the Marches, the "Old North" (Cumbria, Northumbria) or in Devon and Cornwall, where Brythonic languages survived longest. Elsewhere, places with religious significance (cathedral cities) gained or retained Welsh names throughout the Middle Ages and beyond. Places that only became important during or after the industrial revolution (e.g. Birmingham) are less likely to have a Welsh name associated with them, though some have acquired one. (Welsh newspapers of the early 20th Century still referrred to Liverpool rather than the modern cambricisation Lerpwl.)

Thanks for this. I did wonder what 'Caer' translated to and I wondered if it was something to do with cathedrals. Worcester, Brighton and Southampton are just as they are on the Welsh announcements too.

I've attached a copy of a recording from Cardiff of Caerwysg being used, but it sounds like it's been added at a later date to the other stations so 'Exeter' was probably used previously.
View attachment 33974

 

[krus_aragon]

Thanks for this. I did wonder what 'Caer' translated to and I wondered if it was something to do with cathedrals. Worcester, Brighton and Southampton are just as they are on the Welsh announcements too.

I've attached a copy of a recording from Cardiff of Caerwysg being used, but it sounds like it's been added at a later date to the other stations so 'Exeter' was probably used previously.
View attachment 33974

Caer isn't actually related to cathedrals, it means fort, and often refers to a Roman fort. ("-chester" comes from the Latin "castra", with a similar meaning.)

Caerwysg would translate as "Fort on the river Wysg (Exe)", roughly cognate with Exe-cester -> Exeter.

Chester itself, now known as Caer, used to be known as Caerllion Fawr ("Great Legion's Fort", c.f. Caerleon in south Wales) but the full title fell out of use by the mid 20th Century (IIRC).

 

[Llanigraham]

Thanks for this. I did wonder what 'Caer' translated to and I wondered if it was something to do with cathedrals. Worcester, Brighton and Southampton are just as they are on the Welsh announcements too.

There are plenty of towns and villages that start with Caer that certainly don't have cathedrals!
Caersws, where the station is built on the edge of a roman fort is an excellent example.

 

[PHILIPE]

Caerffili (Caerphilly) is a strange one as nobody, even experts, seem to be able to provide translation for "ffili". Any explanations would be welcome.

 

[8H]

Still hoping for the return of through long distance services to Penbedw!!

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Caerffili (Caerphilly) is a strange one as nobody, even experts, seem to be able to provide translation for "ffili". Any explanations would be welcome.

I would assume, as we don't use "ph" as a sound for "f" in Welsh, we use "ff" for "f" so to produce the sound and for it to be easy for a Welsh speaker to understand they convert it to Caerffili.

Not so much a translation more a correct spelling in the Welsh format.

Maybe?

 

[PHILIPE]

There are two locations in South Wales where the locals became up in arms. At each one, the signs on entering the villages being in English only. Following representations by the Welsh Language Society, the council decided to convert the signs to be bilingual. The places are:-

Sully - Add:- SILI
Varteg - Add:- Y FARTEG (The English "f" pronounced as "v" in Welsh)

Can understand why the natives were up in arms

 

[U-Bahnfreund]

So, maybe you guessed it already, but I didn't just ask because I'm generally interested in the language, but also to make something out of it. When I was in Caerdydd the other day, I recorded some of the announcements and compiled them into video. If you're interested, you can watch it on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPvIdF1awdE

Thanks to everyone who helped me with getting the Welsh parts right.

 

[mmh]

Caer isn't actually related to cathedrals, it means fort, and often refers to a Roman fort. ("-chester" comes from the Latin "castra", with a similar meaning.)

Caerwysg would translate as "Fort on the river Wysg (Exe)", roughly cognate with Exe-cester -> Exeter.

Chester itself, now known as Caer, used to be known as Caerllion Fawr ("Great Legion's Fort", c.f. Caerleon in south Wales) but the full title fell out of use by the mid 20th Century (IIRC).

Oh, thank you! Something I'd forgotten until I read this was that I used to wonder as a kid growing up in Llandudno with sadly only pidgin schoolboy Welsh (it went with the territory back then, mae'n ddrwg gen i), what Caernarforn might mean.

I knew that Chester was Caer, and Caernarfon at the time was in a council called Arfon, and wondered if it meant "Chester (yn,in) Arfon".

All these years later I'm now feeling pretty dense for never remembering Caerdydd existed!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Oh, thank you! Something I'd forgotten until I read this was that I used to wonder as a kid growing up in Llandudno with sadly only pidgin schoolboy Welsh (it went with the territory back then, mae'n ddrwg gen i), what Caernarforn might mean.

I knew that Chester was Caer, and Caernarfon at the time was in a council called Arfon, and wondered if it meant "Chester (yn,in) Arfon".

All these years later I'm now feeling pretty dense for never remembering Caerdydd existed!

Most of the Caer's are actually Roman Forts in origin and the naming is ancient.

Caersws station is probably the most aptly named station as I'm afraid our Victorian ancestors cut across the SE corner of the fort ramparts (which are still visible) to build the railway. You alight literally within the fort boundary itself!

There is no definitive correct version of what the sws part means or refers to theories range from a mutation of Zeus the God of War to it being named after a Roman General called Swswen.

Why Chester (Saxon) remains simply as Caer in Welsh meaning fort with no further description afterwards remains unclear. One theory is the sheer size of it - the medieval walls follow the Roman ones meant it was simply known as the Fortress.

 

[krus_aragon]

Why Chester (Saxon) remains simply as Caer in Welsh meaning fort with no further description afterwards remains unclear. One theory is the sheer size of it - the medieval walls follow the Roman ones meant it was simply known as the Fortress.

One can equally ask why Chester remains simply as Chester (c.f. ceaster, and the Latin castrum) as opposed to Lancaster, Chichester, Worcester, etc. My understanding is that the Old English form Legacæstir was shortened to Cæstir in Norman times.

 

[krus_aragon]

I knew that Chester was Caer, and Caernarfon at the time was in a council called Arfon, and wondered if it meant "Chester (yn,in) Arfon".

All these years later I'm now feeling pretty dense for never remembering Caerdydd existed!

So now you know that it meant "Fort in Arfon", specifically the Roman fort Segontium.

Caerdydd is a bit of an oddity, as 'dydd' means 'day'! It's generally believed that and original name of Caerdâf was Anglicised to Caerdaff/Cardiff, (fort on the Taff, or Tâf) and then Cambricised back to Caerdydd. Nearby Llandaff (Welsh: Llandâf) appears to have kept its name intact.

 

[Scouseinmanc]

What a wonderfully fascinating thread!

I love the Welsh language, so wish I could speak it.

 

[Gareth Marston]

So now you know that it meant "Fort in Arfon", specifically the Roman fort Segontium.

Caerdydd is a bit of an oddity, as 'dydd' means 'day'! It's generally believed that and original name of Caerdâf was Anglicised to Caerdaff/Cardiff, (fort on the Taff, or Tâf) and then Cambricised back to Caerdydd. Nearby Llandaff (Welsh: Llandâf) appears to have kept its name intact.

Llandaf - Town of the Church on the Taff.
Llandudno - Town of the Church of St Tudno.

The Llan's are far more numerous than the Caer's.

3 Stations with Caer, 29 with Llan.

 

[krus_aragon]

Llandaf - Town of the Church on the Taff.
Llandudno - Town of the Church of St Tudno.

The Llan's are far more numerous than the Caer's.

3 Stations with Caer, 29 with Llan.

Indeed. Most Llan-places are named after the saint the local church was dedicated to, including Llandudno, Llanrwst, Llangadog, Llandecwyn and Llanwrtyd. These are all old Welsh saints of the Celtic Church, few of which were recognised by Rome after reunification with the Catholic Church.

After this period, a number churches were dedicated or rededicated to the Virgin Mary, hence the prevalence of places known as Llanfair. (Think of how many places called St. Mary's there are in England, for a comparison.) They're so common that they need further clarification, such as Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, Llanfair-ym-Muallt or Llanfairfechan.

Much rarer are those Llans that are named after a geographical feature, rather than a person. Llandaf takes its name from the river Taff, Llanbradach from the Bradach valley, and Llangefni from the river Cefni (although it was once known as Llangyngar, for its church is dedicated to St Cyngar).

 

[PHILIPE]

Just to add to the last post by Krus Aragon, the name of the saint, or river, starts with a soft mutation, i.e. Llandaf - "taf" (name of river) becomes "daf".
Just posted this in case anybody starts wondering.

 

[Llanigraham]

My Welsh expert friend says that the term "church" as a meaning of Llan may not be correct, as many of the places that use it are often pre-Christian. He suggests that "the settlement of" may more correct.

 

[mmh]

Thank you everyone and especially the Welsh speakers for a fantastic and enlightening thread! I remembered I had a copy of Y Geiriadur Mawr ("The Big Dictionary") which I bought in a bookshop in Rochester years ago. It's a fantastic book I can remember teachers telling me about as a kid but I'm not sure I ever saw one back then. 1968 edition, here are the "caer" and "llan" definitions

caer (feminine noun, plural -au): mur; lle wedi ei gryfhau, amddiffynfa, castell. WALL; FORT, CASTLE, CITADEL.

llan (feminine noun, plural -nau): eglwys, plwyf, ardal yng ngofal offeiriad, pentref. CHURCH, PARISH, VILLAGE

I'd not thought of 'llan' ever being a word on its own before (it gives a second definition
as "iard. YARD". 'iard' sounds a bit too much like the sign the KwikFit in Bangor used to have saying they did "Breiciau, Siocs & Ecsots" to me

Really happy I finally know where Caer comes from, thank you again folks.

There's a lovely bit in the foreword from 1958 to the dictionary:

"The inclusion of a large number of technical terms (now incorporated in the main parts, and not in separate lists) together with a host of obsolete words is significant. It shows that the Editors regard Welsh as a medium of thought and expression in the modern world and not only as the vehicle of a fine literary tradition. And how right they are!"

 

[leightonbd]

Amuse yourself by looking up the meaning/derivation of Llandarcy (not a station, I know, but adjacent to the main line near Neath).

 

[rf_ioliver]

My Welsh expert friend says that the term "church" as a meaning of Llan may not be correct, as many of the places that use it are often pre-Christian. He suggests that "the settlement of" may more correct.

Most likely correct. Found this old etymological dictionary;

http://npu.edu.ua/!e-book/book/djvu/A/iif_kgpm_Etymological_Glossary_of_Old_Welsh.pdf

Llan, from Old Welsh Lann

On page 101 of the above.

lann n f "church church-yard" [llan]
IE *lendh- "freies Land, Heide Steppe"

lann (2) n "frying pan"
Etymologically identical with "lann (1)"

The abbreviation IE means Indo European and the German text meaning "free land", "Pagan" and "Grassland (Steppe)", certainly fitting in with the idea of pre-Christian era, though Old Welsh dates from 800-1200AD and this word appears in all Brythionic Languages therefore probably *much* older.

The Welsh Language Wikipedia page for "Llan" states:

Mae gwreiddiau'r gair yn hen iawn. Yn ôl Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru mae'n deillio o'r gair Celteg tybiedig *landa o'r gwreiddyn *lendh- 'tir agored, rhos'. Cytras iddo yw'r gair llannerch a'r gair Saesneg land. Yn yr ieithoedd Celtaidd eraill ceir geiriau cytras, fel lann ('eglwys; rhos, tir agored') yn Llydaweg a lann ('tir; adeilad, eglwys') yn y Wyddeleg, er enghraifft. O'r gair Galeg cytras *landa ceir y gair Ffrangeg lande ('rhos, tir garw').

Ie: Extremely old word, tir = land, agored=open, rhos=rose. Also occuring in Breton (Llydaweg), Irish and French - possibly from Gaulish/Insular Celtic. Eglwys however is a word for Church but comes from the Latin for church...and that's another etymological story*

No idea about lann (2) above ... might refer to the shape of land/area - a flattened bowl - Welsh does describe some geographical features in terms of shape.

Mods: can we change the title of the forums to RailUKandCelticLinguisticForums ... ?

t.

Ian

*https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/6351/online-etymology-dictionary-for-latin

 

[krus_aragon]

Eglwys however is a word for Church but comes from the Latin for church...and that's another etymological story*

Yep. The lay speaker of English may not see a connection between "eglwys" and "church", but the link is a lot clearer between "eglwys" and the adjective "ecclesiastical". Unsurprising, in a way, as Christianity was introduced to Wales by the Romans. (I wonder what words used for religious sites before Roman times got displaced?)

 

[Strat-tastic]

What a wonderfully fascinating thread!

I love the Welsh language, so wish I could speak it.

Yes indeedy!