Lines where ATO could work

[bussnapperwm]

Following on from Thameslink services going ATO in the core earlier this year, it set me thinking...

Is there any other lines where it could work to increase capacity?

Personally I think it could work on the Snow Hill Lines in the Moor Street - Hawthorns core, especially underneath Birmingham with both Chiltern and WMR services using the section, post December 2021 timetable change, once the locals goes to 8TPH and Chiltern services terminate at Snow Hill (Because of Camp Hill services being planned for Moor Street)

Another candidate I think it could work on it is the Glasgow Queen Street lower level services.

What say you?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Crossrail ?

 

[Malcolmffc]

ATO makes a difference in very high frequency services, so most lines into London and other major cities would likely benefit, especially the 24tph inner SWML.

 

[Tim M]

Crossrail ?

Crossrail has ATO, particularly helpful for accurately stopping trains at Platform Screen Doors. There are many other advantages of course.

 

[Tim M]

ATO makes a difference in very high frequency services, so most lines into London and other major cities would likely benefit, especially the 24tph inner SWML.

This would only work if Automatic Train Protection (ATP) was installed, i.e. ETCS, as the ATO needs to know about the signalling (unlike a driver it can’t physically see signal aspects) in the form of the ETCS movement authority.

 

[Geeves]

There are literally hundred's of metro systems using ato or a generic companies automatic moving block signalling systems. I am wondering personally what the significance of using it over the top of ETCS really is. Seems like an extra thing to go wrong.

 

[Tim M]

There are literally hundred's of metro systems using ato or a generic companies automatic moving block signalling systems. I am wondering personally what the significance of using it over the top of ETCS really is. Seems like an extra thing to go wrong.

There was another thread this week on the topic of Thameslink ATO, that got a bit out of hand and was rightly closed down. However another question has been asked and I hope to provide some answers.

On your last point about ‘extra thing to go wrong’, there is a fall back available, the driver. Also don’t forget this September sees the 50th anniversary of ATO on the Victoria Line. Reliability has improved significantly since the days of analogue computing.

On Thameslink and Crossrail core, ATO is used to provide consistent inter station run times, with 24 trains per hour every second counts and to rely on every driver to provide this level of consistency is probably asking too much.

However there is another feature of ATO that I didn’t mention on the other thread, regulation. But first a bit of history.

When I joined that well known signalling company in Chippenham in the mid 80’s the big job was Singapore MRT, following on from the companies undoubted success with Hong Kong MTR. Singapore featured the first all digital ATP and ATO systems, also platform screen doors. Automatic Train Supervision (ATS) was provided to manage the service using Automatic Route Setting with methods to manage timetable changes on the fly. The Singapore system was also implemented on the Central Line (LU didn’t use the coasting feature mentioned below) and Beijing Line 1.

The Singapore ATO included the ability to manage inter station run times by coasting, that is applying say 10% or 20% extra time, and saving energy as a result. The timetable was predicated on using maximum coasting, but with operator intervention if required via the ATS communicating with the trackside ATO and hence to the train to change coasting to 10% or zero. Increasingly such decision making is made by the regulation alagorithms built into the control centre (ROC in U.K. parlance).

So looking at Thameslink, if a train presents itself late by 15 seconds entering the core system, the ATO interstation run time could (if this feature is available, being retired I don’t know all the facts) be amended to catch up that 15 seconds. Just imagine how to tell a driver to save that time, reliably. ATO functionality has come a long way since Singapore in 1986.

In many ways a modern ATO system should be considered as an extension of the Control centre functionality, even though it is very reliant on inputs from the ETCS for Movement Authority safety information.

 

[Kite159]

The core section of the East London Line?

 

[jyte]

The core section of the East London Line?

I remember reading there was serious talk of something like ETCS being installed there (see here) as part of a desire to increase capacity.

 

[HSTEd]

Does ATO actually require much additional lineside hardware?

The ETCS standard already has options for additional datagrams to be carried over the existing infrastructure.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does ATO actually require much additional lineside hardware?

The ETCS standard already has options for additional datagrams to be carried over the existing infrastructure.

None at all lineside, other than a sign.

 

[MarkyT]

Does ATO actually require much additional lineside hardware?

The ETCS standard already has options for additional datagrams to be carried over the existing infrastructure.

On Thameslink, I read they used additional standard passive balises for ATO to achieve accurate platform stopping positions with a custom message protocol defined under the ETCS framework in packet 44. Although not required for this particular project, the accuracy has proved sufficient to support platform edge door provision if they were ever required on Thameslink or if the same technical solution was used elsewhere. Otherwise ATO is largely a train-borne system that drives optimally according to the movement authorities given by ETCS cab signalling after the 'go' button is pressed.

 

[wls1]

I'd suggest between barking/upminster and fenchurch, 20tph each peak both ways. Could definitely be used to increase services in the future.

 

[gsnedders]

There are literally hundred's of metro systems using ato or a generic companies automatic moving block signalling systems. I am wondering personally what the significance of using it over the top of ETCS really is. Seems like an extra thing to go wrong.

The pre-requisite is that you need in-cab signalling for it (as you need something you can provide to the ATO system so it knows the current movement authority); there's nothing significant about ETCS here.

 

[jyte]

I'd suggest between barking/upminster and fenchurch, 20tph each peak both ways. Could definitely be used to increase services in the future.

Also mostly self contained!

 

[HSTEd]

None at all lineside, other than a sign.

So why can't it be used anywhere and everywhere with ETCS?
Regulating decisions could be placed directly in the hands of the signaller.

 

[Bald Rick]

So why can't it be used anywhere and everywhere with ETCS?
Regulating decisions could be placed directly in the hands of the signaller.

No reason, so long as the train has the ATO computer and is capable.

But ATO is nothing to do with regulation.

 

[Tim M]

But ATO is nothing to do with regulation.

Yes it can and frequently does. With the ability to vary the interstation run times to overcome late running (in mass transit terms 15 to 30 seconds for 24 trains per hour is significant), the ATO should be regarded as part of the Automatic Train Regulation function of the overall control system. See my longer post above.

 

[td97]

Through Deansgate, Oxford Road & Piccadilly?
On reflection, Grayling would love some digital technology to cancel Piccadilly P15/16, so maybe not the best idea to push forward with

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes it can and frequently does. With the ability to vary the interstation run times to overcome late running (in mass transit terms 15 to 30 seconds for 24 trains per hour is significant), the ATO should be regarded as part of the Automatic Train Regulation function of the overall control system. See my longer post above.

We’re going to have to disagree

The signaller / controller / Traffic Management system manages regulation, and sends movement authority messages to the driver of the train, whether this be a person or a computer.

ATO enables better reaction to regulation, which in turn may enable different regulation. But it doesn’t control the regulation.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The Airedale and Whafedale Lines. They're mostly served by stoppers and the platforms only just hold a four car unit.

 

[Tim M]

We’re going to have to disagree

ATO enables better reaction to regulation, which in turn may enable different regulation. But it doesn’t control the regulation.

I agree, and that is the essence of what my previous posts said, ATO is an enabler working in conjunction with the ‘Control Centre’.

I think where we disagree Is interpreting your original comment ‘But ATO is nothing to do with regulation’ which I thought meant there is no connection, which there can be if required.

 

[MarkyT]

We’re going to have to disagree

The signaller / controller / Traffic Management system manages regulation, and sends movement authority messages to the driver of the train, whether this be a person or a computer.

ATO enables better reaction to regulation, which in turn may enable different regulation. But it doesn’t control the regulation.

On Thameslink, I read the ATR system, knowing the progress of each service within its supervision, sends additional messages to a train's ATO to instruct it to automatically drive aggressively or in economy mode as appropriate to make up time or avoid catching up traffic in front or anticipated junction conflicts. From a safety point of view this is 'advice' however, rather like similar C-DAS used with human drivers, and is essentially a one way conversation that supplies additional information to the train, supplementing movement authorities. Regardless of any instructions to the contrary, the train's ATO is engineered to never attempt to drive outside the safe speed envelope calculated by the on board ETCS computer according to the movement authorities. Even if it does try nevertheless, the ATP will cut in to prevent this. I think you are correct in the sense that the automatic regulation and route setting system relies on position sensing which is a basic signalling function, nothing to do with ATO, but the system can also send additional speed up /slow down messages to trains to maintain smooth traffic flow outside the safety messaging system. These messages are in addition to the movement authority and are more subtle than can be conveyed in standard 'ETCS language' alone. In proprietary ATO systems as used on many metros worldwide, this feedback loop has always existed but is often concealed behind vendors' special sauce proprietary magic curtain. In integrating ATO with ETCS for main line operations, Thameslink has exposed the various interfaces involved.

 

[Daz28]

Could it be used to increase capacity London Bridge to Charing Cross / Cannon Street?

 

[Bald Rick]

Could it be used to increase capacity London Bridge to Charing Cross / Cannon Street?

Not to Charing Cross; the capacity limit there is platforms at Charing Cross itself. Cannon St possibly. London Bridge LL definitely.

 

[170401]

Another candidate I think it could work on it is the Glasgow Queen Street lower level services.

What say you?

It's being considered for the Partick bottleneck although it is likely to be more than a decade away and will be linked to the wholesale replacement of class 318/320/334.

 

[jeromeroberts]

I think the two most likely schemes for ATO within the next 5 years would be Norhern city line between Drayton Park to Moorgate and as mentioned earlier the ELL core between Surrey Quays and Highbury & Islington.

 

[philthetube]

I don't know if there is enough demand to Moorgate, I imagine that the first one they would love to do would be the Brighton main line.

Whether it could be done is a totally different question

 

[Mathew S]

Merseyrail? Certainly the loop line and central, underground, sections.

Or perhaps Metrolink outside of the street running sections.

 

[Clansman]

Greater Glasgow definitley in the next 20 or so years.

Watford DC line could be another candidate.