Line speeds on WCML compared (80s v 2020s)

[MarkWi72]

I’ve been on the Train Simulator with a Pendolino tonight. 125 mph is the highest in certain sections. 110 elsewhere. Is 110mph the slow line limits, or can125mph be done on these?

Elsewhere, Cov - Rugby and Four Ashes -Stafford is highest on Brum loops, with 75 on the Grand Jn and Stour Valley.

What about elsewhere on the network ( including the tributaries ( Northampton loop, Styal, Crewe-Stoke, Colwich Stone Stoke, Mac-Manchester , Weaver -Lime St etc).

How do these compared with the 80s? Before the upgrades?

 

[yorkie]

Is 110mph the slow line limits, or can125mph be done on these?

I believe both fast and slows allow 125mph in the area around Lichfield.

In fact, because the 'slow' line effectively continues towards Stafford, the line speed for a train coming off the 'slow' line towards Stafford is actually higher than the line speed for a train coming of the 'fast' line.

This is just off the top of my head.

You can obtain line speeds in the sectional appendix:

National Electronic Sectional Appendix - Network Rail

The National Electronic Sectional Appendix contains detailed information useful to operators about network capability, as well as other data.

www.networkrail.co.uk

 

[MarkWi72]

I believe both fast and slows allow 125mph in the area around Lichfield.

In fact, because the 'slow' line effectively continues towards Stafford, the line speed for a train coming off the 'slow' line towards Stafford is actually higher than the line speed for a train coming of the 'fast' line.

This is just off the top of my head.

You can obtain line speeds in the sectional appendix:

National Electronic Sectional Appendix - Network Rail

The National Electronic Sectional Appendix contains detailed information useful to operators about network capability, as well as other data.

www.networkrail.co.uk

Thanks, this is interesting

 

[Sorcerer]

I remember seeing a cab ride video where the max line speed of the WCML was 110 before modernisation, and I believe it's still the non-EPS speed even on the fasts. But talking of the Trent Valley specifically, was it not only quadruple track after the modernisation? I can't remember if whether or not before then it was mostly two-track with some three or four-track sections, but if it was the latter then would that also mean there's no fast and slow lines to compare the modern speed limits to? (I hope that last bit of phrasing wasn't badly worded)

 

[Huntergreed]

I’ve been on the Train Simulator with a Pendolino tonight. 125 mph is the highest in certain sections. 110 elsewhere. Is 110mph the slow line limits, or can125mph be done on these?

Elsewhere, Cov - Rugby and Four Ashes -Stafford is highest on Brum loops, with 75 on the Grand Jn and Stour Valley.

What about elsewhere on the network ( including the tributaries ( Northampton loop, Styal, Crewe-Stoke, Colwich Stone Stoke, Mac-Manchester , Weaver -Lime St etc).

How do these compared with the 80s? Before the upgrades?

I'm much more an expert on the Northern WCML as I travel this at least weekly! I have a rough knowledge of the route so will try summarise what I can.

125mph is the absolute maximum limit (on the WCML this is only permitted to be done by class 390/221 trains. On the WCML, EPS (enhanced permissible speed) limits apply which permit higher speeds for tilting trains (390/221). In certain areas there are differential speed limits for 390 and 221 trains (390s can tilt more than 221s hence a higher speed limit)). The maximum speed for conventional (non tilting) trains is 110mph anywhere on the WCML as I understand it.

On the fast lines, the following sections are 125 for 390 trains:

Wembley Central - Carpenders Park
The north end of Watford Tunnels - Stowe Hill Tunnel
Watford Gap - Kilsby Tunnel
North of Kilsby Tunnel - Atherstone
North of Atherstone - Colwich Jn
North of Stafford - Crewe
Just North of Crewe - Just south of Warrington Bank Quay
Just North of Wigan North Western - Just North of Leyland
Just North of Preston - Just South of Lancaster
Just North of Lancaster - Carnforth
Just North of Carnforth - Just North of Milnthorpe
Just North of Tebay - Just South of Shap Summit
Just North of Penrith - Southwaite
North of Kingmoor - Gretna Jn
North of Cove Level Crossing - Ecclefechan NS
Just South of Lockerbie - Halfway up Beattock
Just North of Lamington Viaduct - Just South of Carstairs Jn

There are also 125 EPS Limits on the branches (such as from Rugby - Coventry and Just North of Wolverhampton - Just South of Stafford on the Birmingham Branch).

As 390's run semi-regularly into Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley, the section between Tamworth and Colwich Jn is 125 on both the Slow and Fast Lines (in the down direction). Aside from this, the slows have an absolute maximum of 110mph (as this is generally the highest that trains that use these lines can achieve).

There are multiple reasons why the slow lines have a lower limit (including poorer track quality, a lack of traction which justifies a higher speed limit and a lack of financial viability in upgrading these tracks).

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Are there any MU or HST speeds?

 

[MarkWi72]

I'm much more an expert on the Northern WCML as I travel this at least weekly! I have a rough knowledge of the route so will try summarise what I can.

125mph is the absolute maximum limit (on the WCML this is only permitted to be done by class 390 trains. On the WCML, EPS (enhanced permissible speed) limits apply which permit higher speeds for tilting trains (390/221). In certain areas there are differential speed limits for 390 and 221 trains (390s can tilt more than 221s hence a higher speed limit)). The maximum speed for conventional (non tilting) trains is 110mph anywhere on the WCML as I understand it.

On the fast lines, the following sections are 125 for 390 trains:

Wembley Central - Carpenders Park
The north end of Watford Tunnels - Stowe Hill Tunnel
Watford Gap - Kilsby Tunnel
North of Kilsby Tunnel - Atherstone
North of Atherstone - Colwich Jn
North of Stafford - Crewe
Just North of Crewe - Just south of Warrington Bank Quay
Just North of Wigan North Western - Just North of Leyland
Just North of Preston - Just South of Lancaster
Just North of Lancaster - Carnforth
Just North of Carnforth - Just North of Milnthorpe
Just North of Tebay - Just South of Shap Summit
Just North of Penrith - Southwaite
North of Kingmoor - Gretna Jn
North of Cove Level Crossing - Ecclefechan NS
Just South of Lockerbie - Halfway up Beattock
Just North of Lamington Viaduct - Just South of Carstairs Jn

There are also 125 EPS Limits on the branches (such as from Rugby - Coventry and Just North of Wolverhampton - Just South of Stafford on the Birmingham Branch).

As 390's run semi-regularly into Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley, the section between Tamworth and Colwich Jn is 125 on both the Slow and Fast Lines (in the down direction). Aside from this, the slows have an absolute maximum of 110mph (as this is generally the highest that trains that use these lines can achieve).

There are multiple reasons why the slow lines have a lower limit (including poorer track quality, a lack of traction which justifies a higher speed limit and a lack of financial viability in upgrading these tracks).

This is comprehensive. Thanks. Regarding these areas, I presume they’d have been 100-110 in the 80s/90s with 75mph in slow lines.

On the Brum loop , interesting to see those sections are 125 mph with the straight sections they have. In the 80s I recall 90 mph through Penkridge and I think it was like that for the Cov - Rugby Sections.

 

[jfollows]

I remember seeing a cab ride video where the max line speed of the WCML was 110 before modernisation, and I believe it's still the non-EPS speed even on the fasts. But talking of the Trent Valley specifically, was it not only quadruple track after the modernisation? I can't remember if whether or not before then it was mostly two-track with some three or four-track sections, but if it was the latter then would that also mean there's no fast and slow lines to compare the modern speed limits to? (I hope that last bit of phrasing wasn't badly worded)

Two track Tamworth to Armitage Junction with platform lines at Lichfield Trent Valley. Four track Nuneaton to Tamworth. Three/four track Rugby to Nuneaton. Four track Armitage to Colwich. Some differences in layout of fast/slow lines before modernisation near Rugby and near Colwich.

 

[driver9000]

Are there any MU or HST speeds?

There's a 105HST near Shieldmuir on the Down.

 

[jfollows]

This is comprehensive. Thanks. Regarding these areas, I presume they’d have been 100-110 in the 80s/90s with 75mph in slow lines.

In the 1980s:
40mph out of Euston
55 approaching Primrose Hill Tunnels (1m 51ch)
80 after Primrose Hill Tunnels (2-30)
90 at milepost 3.5
110 after Willesden West London Junction milepost 6
100 after Bushey
110 after River Colne bridge before Watford
95 through Berkhamsted, then 100 to beyond Tring
110
90 after Leighton Buzzard and through Linslade Tunnels to 42 milepost
110
80 through Weedon curves
110
60 through Rugby (which was good, it had been 40 or maybe 45 in the 1970s)
100 from 83-63
110 after Brinklow to approaching Nuneaton, followed by 80 through Atherstone, back to 100 only then to Colwich through Tamworth and Lichfield
90 down to 65 approaching Stafford
110
90 through Norton Bridge
110 to approaching Crewe

That's taken from something of a snapshot dating from around 1980. (EDIT More like 1984, actually, see posts 15 and 16 below)

So quite a lot at 100 as well as 110, certainly not 110 all the way with only a few exceptions

Colwich-Cheadle Hulme was 85 all the way after electrification, but incrementally eased/increased in parts starting in the 1980s to allow slightly higher speeds.

 

[Boodiggy]

New MU speed profile coming soon between Kilburn and Weaver Junction.
No raise to any PS but EPS will now cover Carpenders Park to Watford Tunnel!
No EPS differential as not cl.221s, but PS with max 110, MU max 125 and EPS max 125. The MU 125 means non-tilting trains can run at 125mph
As others have said above 125mph is the max for WCML and between Tamworth to Rugeley the slow lines also have EPS 125.
I have never played the simulator games but notice in a vid on Youtube the speeds on Euston - Birmingham simulator are all wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2023 ==

Are there any MU or HST speeds?

Currently MU speeds only between Rugby and Stafford via West Mids but as my post above there is a new MU speed for WCML for new trains, and also for cl.390 when running non-tilt following them being reclassified to run at MU speeds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

221s can do 125mph EPS on the WCML (differential speed limits in a few places).
WCRM added new tracks on the Down north of Rugby and Hartford and these became the "fast" even though on the outside of the layout.
That put freights inside on the old 110mph fasts in those locations.

For a curious few years, 125mph was allowed for HST/22x between Bushbury-Stafford, but electrics, including 390s/350s, were limited to 90mph until the OHLE was upgraded.
Colwich-Stoke-Cheadle Hulme was upgraded from 85mph, a small amount to 125mph EPS.
But Crewe-Cheadle Hulme it still at 110mph PS (no EPS) despite being comprehensively rebuilt.

Several sections of the WCML slow line are still at the old 75mph, even though much of it was improved to 100mph or better.
Tamworth-Rugby is the longest of those, also the Northampton loop north of Northampton, and Shugborough-Stafford.
Birmingham-Wolverhampton is still at 75mph (dip to 60 in 2 places) despite the heavy traffic capable of 100mph and more.

There's still no EPS Acton Grange-Wigan, despite having some of the sharpest curves on the WCML (Dallam 80, Winwick 90, Golborne 80).

 

[AJDesiro]

I'm much more an expert on the Northern WCML as I travel this at least weekly! I have a rough knowledge of the route so will try summarise what I can.

125mph is the absolute maximum limit (on the WCML this is only permitted to be done by class 390 trains. On the WCML, EPS (enhanced permissible speed) limits apply which permit higher speeds for tilting trains (390/221). In certain areas there are differential speed limits for 390 and 221 trains (390s can tilt more than 221s hence a higher speed limit)). The maximum speed for conventional (non tilting) trains is 110mph anywhere on the WCML as I understand it.

This is no longer true, between Rugby and Coventry, there is a 125mph MU differential, allowing any non-tilt multiple unit to travel at that speed. There’s also been a non-tilt MU profile for 125mph between Bushbury Jn-Stafford. We will see more speed increases progressively, for the introduction of the new Avanti 80X.

Effectively meaning that, all multiple units other than a 253/254 with less than 3 coaches and 185s can travel at 125mph on the WCML now, assuming their top speed permits this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But not over as much of the route as the EPS sections.
We await the new speed signs with interest.

 

[Snow1964]

Going back to 1980s as per the title, there was nothing above 100mph in early 1980s. At the time the 87s and 86/2 (the ones with flexicoil suspension) tended do do fast runs, although the cross country trains (north of Coventry) and some other workings used 85s (which had body mounted motors and flexible drives). All were officially 100mph.

The upgrade to 110mph was nearer end of 1980s (sorry forgotten date)

 

[jfollows]

The upgrade to 110mph was nearer end of 1980s (sorry forgotten date)

In place for the 1984 timetable per #9 , but not as early as 1980 as I said in post 10 above, I agree.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

There's a 105HST near Shieldmuir on the Down.

New MU speed profile coming soon between Kilburn and Weaver Junction.
No raise to any PS but EPS will now cover Carpenders Park to Watford Tunnel!
No EPS differential as not cl.221s, but PS with max 110, MU max 125 and EPS max 125. The MU 125 means non-tilting trains can run at 125mph
As others have said above 125mph is the max for WCML and between Tamworth to Rugeley the slow lines also have EPS 125.
I have never played the simulator games but notice in a vid on Youtube the speeds on Euston - Birmingham simulator are all wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2023 ==


Currently MU speeds only between Rugby and Stafford via West Mids but as my post above there is a new MU speed for WCML for new trains, and also for cl.390 when running non-tilt following them being reclassified to run at MU speeds.

Thanks

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The upgrade to 110mph was nearer end of 1980s (sorry forgotten date)

And wasn't 110mph only with Mk3 stock, which never reached all services?
I think Birmingham route trains ran at 100 with Mk2 stock until 390s displaced them.

 

[jfollows]

And wasn't 110mph only with Mk3 stock, which never reached all services?
I think Birmingham route trains ran at 100 with Mk2 stock until 390s displaced them.

And some Mk1 stock such as brake vans were upgraded to run at 110mph also (NHA), but never Mk2.

 

[Bald Rick]

And wasn't 110mph only with Mk3 stock, which never reached all services?
I think Birmingham route trains ran at 100 with Mk2 stock until 390s displaced them.

a few Birmingham services ran with 110mph stock, notably the up Birmingham Pullman, and anything else where set swaps had happened at short notice.