Line Closures

[SamYeager]

Network Rail finally seems to be getting the infrastructure costs under control (after getting out of hand under Railtrack)

Out of interest how long has Network Rail been in existence as compared to Railtrack? It feels as though Network Rail has been around for rather longer but perhaps that's my memory playing up.

 

[ac6000cw]

The Railtrack era ran from 1994 to 2002, so yes Network Rail has been around for longer (and is starting to look very like old, pre-sectorisation, BR without the trains, now that most of the track renewals as well as maintenance are moving 'in house' ). It's even got regions (except they are called 'territories') and it'll be borrowing money directly from the Treasury in the future.

 

[yorksrob]

No problem with that in principle (although in terms of subsidy per passenger, a comparison of train versus bus versus contract taxi service costs might be interesting in some cases). Back in the 1970's, the passenger subsidies to BR were broken down and published for individual routes (large tables in Modern Railways once a year!) - the subsidies for some lines were horrendous in relation to average usage, e.g. it wasn't hard to see why BR proposed Inverness - Kyle of Localsh for closure....

The 'railway' has done well out of privatisation in terms of investment and increases in services, but it's at a cost to the taxpayer that is probably unsustainable long term. Network Rail finally seems to be getting the infrastructure costs under control (after getting out of hand under Railtrack), but the railway as a whole needs to do it's 'housekeeping' so that it doesn't hand easy sticks to beat it with to 'enterprising' politicians in the future.

The last period of major railway investment (1950's modernisation plan) led to Dr Beeching taking charge, after BR wasted taxpayer's money on investing for traffic that had been in long-term decline, instead of electrifying the ECML - a very visible modernisation project that had already been looked at by the LNER - and cutting back the parts of the system that were unlikely to have a viable future. It could happen again.....hospitals, schools, care for the elderly or railway subsidies anyone ?

(or we could end up with the French problem of rural 'trains' that are actually railway buses because the local authority refuses to stump up extra money so the track can be fixed or the trains hired!).

A lot of fair points well made.

I too worry that the bubble might burst, and the Beeching precedent hasn't been lost on me (although in some cases BR's hands were tied by the common carrier agreement forcing them to invest in loss making freight).

I worry that the regime of track access charges and rolling stock leasing today makes rural services more expensive to run than they actually are in terms of physical running. I'd rather see this reformed before another round of cuts is contemplated.

 

[ac6000cw]

I worry that the regime of track access charges and rolling stock leasing today makes rural services more expensive to run than they actually are in terms of physical running. I'd rather see this reformed before another round of cuts is contemplated.

I agree - in the early days of privatisation there was talk of 'micro-franchises' for rural lines (the Whitby line was an oft-used example), with the idea that these could be run and maintained to suitable (for the traffic) standards by local organisations at lower cost - a bit like a small US 'shortline railroad' setup. That idea seemed to evaporate along the way somewhere.

 

[Carlisle]

I agree - in the early days of privatisation there was talk of 'micro-franchises' for rural lines (the Whitby line was an oft-used example), with the idea that these could be run and maintained to suitable (for the traffic) standards by local organisations at lower cost - a bit like a small US 'shortline railroad' setup. That idea seemed to evaporate along the way somewhere.

Interesting ,and I can also recall reading a BR Regional Railways staff newsletter around 1991 ish suggesting some very lightly used routes might consider units where drivers issue tickets oviously to save money I guess

 

[Kite159]

Talking about closures, when did the Bradford curve linking the TransWilts line (Trowbridge to Chippenham line via Melksham) and the Wessex Mainline at Bradford south Junction get removed (so that trains could go Bradford to Melksham)

Passing it over the last couple days and the lack of track is very noticeable

 

[ac6000cw]

Interesting ,and I can also recall reading a BR Regional Railways staff newsletter around 1991 ish suggesting some very lightly used routes might consider units where drivers issue tickets obviously to save money

It's certainly been done in other countries - the beautifully restored Swedish diesel railbus at the Nene Valley railway was designed for that arrangement, the driver sits opposite the entrance doors (there are a few pictures of the 'cab' area here - http://www.irps-wl.org.uk/restoration-projects/international-restoration-projects/railbus - 121's & 153's eat your heart out...if you get a chance, go for a ride, it's just great )

 

[yorksrob]

It's certainly been done in other countries - the beautifully restored Swedish diesel railbus at the Nene Valley railway was designed for that arrangement, the driver sits opposite the entrance doors (there are a few pictures of the 'cab' area here - http://www.irps-wl.org.uk/restoration-projects/international-restoration-projects/railbus - 121's & 153's eat your heart out...if you get a chance, go for a ride, it's just great )

Wouldn't this layout cause a problem if the platform was on the wrong side ?

 

[455driver]

Wouldn't this layout cause a problem if the platform was on the wrong side ?

It would caused a problem if the platform was on the 'correct' side as we sit on the left hand side over here.

 

[ac6000cw]

Wouldn't this layout cause a problem if the platform was on the wrong side ?

Sorry, my memory of the layout wasn't quite correct - the entrance doors (on both sides) are just behind the driver (i.e. on the left in this picture) http://www.irps-wl.org.uk/images/restoration/1212/launch/launch26.jpg - and from chatting to the NVR people the layout was intended to allow for one-person operation of the railcar (there is a sort of counter on the driver's right in this picture - http://www.irps-wl.org.uk/images/restoration/1212/2013/1212_diesel_chris.jpg )

 

[yorksrob]

Sorry, my memory of the layout wasn't quite correct - the entrance doors (on both sides) are just behind the driver (i.e. on the left in this picture) http://www.irps-wl.org.uk/images/restoration/1212/launch/launch26.jpg - and from chatting to the NVR people the layout was intended to allow for one-person operation of the railcar (there is a sort of counter on the driver's right in this picture - http://www.irps-wl.org.uk/images/restoration/1212/2013/1212_diesel_chris.jpg )

Ah, thanks for the further info.

 

[edwin_m]

Some trams in Germany and elsewhere have ticket windows in the back of the cabs. I think the driver has a swivel chair. However buying from the driver isn't encouraged as it slows the service.

The Bradford curve went with the Westbury re-signalling back in the 80s I think.

 

[Buttsy]

I think at some point Weymouth Quay will go in the way Folkestone Harbour has. I know the branch hasn't seen a service since 1999, but should any redevelopment occur along the Quay, riverbank or west of the station, then it'll go too. The only reason it's mothballed is that it's cheaper to do that than close it.

 

[ac6000cw]

I think at some point Weymouth Quay will go in the way Folkstone Harbour has. I know the branch hasn't seen a service since 1999, but should any redevelopment occur along the Quay, riverbank or west of the station, then it'll go too. The only reason it's mothballed is that it's cheaper to do that than close it.

It looks like it's no longer owned by NR - see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/dorset/7868255.stm (so presumably it has been formally closed ?)

 

[headshot119]

It's certainly been done in other countries - the beautifully restored Swedish diesel railbus at the Nene Valley railway was designed for that arrangement, the driver sits opposite the entrance doors (there are a few pictures of the 'cab' area here - http://www.irps-wl.org.uk/restoration-projects/international-restoration-projects/railbus - 121's & 153's eat your heart out...if you get a chance, go for a ride, it's just great )

One of the experimental railbuses RB004 was fitted with a centre driving position so the driver could collect money from passengers on the way on.

 

[frodshamfella]

On the contrary, I think it's time that some of them were made into useful worthwhile services again. Particularly Knottingley - Goole and the Brigg line.

Too true, I can site Halton Curve, a one way parliamentary from late May to September, this should be brought back into full use, and soon.

Has been written about a lot on this site already, but proposal is for a reinstatement of full service North Wales/Wrexham/Chester/Runcorn/Liverpool South Parkway (for airport) Liverpool Lime Street. Possible new station in Beechwood area of Runcorn also.

 

[Carlisle]

One of the experimental railbuses RB004 was fitted with a centre driving position so the driver could collect money from passengers on the way on.

That might have a slight delay getting ORR safety case approval unless on automated DLR style line,I remember drivers issuing tickets on some modern looking single DMUs in Austria but that was almost 15 years ago so don't know if it still happens

 

[ac6000cw]

That might have a slight delay getting ORR safety case approval unless on automated DLR style line

Why ?

I assume it would only be allowed when the train is stationary (and almost certainly only used on the 'one train working' branch lines with no normal lineside signalling other than where they meet the mainline), so what is the safety problem ?

(and I suspect the Austrians and Swedes might be a little upset at the suggestion that their train working was less safe than ours )

 

[Carlisle]

Why ?

I assume it would only be allowed when the train is stationary (and almost certainly only used on the 'one train working' branch lines with no normal lineside signalling other than where they meet the mainline), so what is the safety problem ?

(and I suspect the Austrians and Swedes might be a little upset at the suggestion that their train working was less safe than ours )

The Swedish railcar you mentioned at the Nene Valley does look very well restored and worth a ride , Its surprising this concept has not been tried as an experiment somewhere over here, maybe to provide a year round regular service on a heritage line or something ,and of course if passanger numbers grow above a certain level you simply revert to traditional crew operation .I'll have to try and find a pic of the experimental centre cab design to comment any further on it

 

[nottinghamcity]

Interesting ,and I can also recall reading a BR Regional Railways staff newsletter around 1991 ish suggesting some very lightly used routes might consider units where drivers issue tickets oviously to save money I guess

I think most TOCs today are likely to use the driver only operation / penalty fare / revenue protection / ticket machine option

 

[leytongabriel]

Wasn't no rail closures for the life of this parliament one of the coalition conditions? I don't think there is any commitment from the conservatives beyond that. Anyone know how regional funding has worked in Holland?

 

[Mark62]

Who remembers the Anlaby curve closure notice. Wasn't permission given for the closure but it remained open.
Let's not for get The Clayton west line. Or haltwhistle to Alston, another hotly contested closure and yet another line closed by a labour government.

 

[Carlisle]

Who remembers the Anlaby curve closure notice. Wasn't permission given for the closure but it remained open.
Let's not for get The Clayton west line. Or haltwhistle to Alston, another hotly contested closure and yet another line closed by a labour government.

Yes there certainly were quite a few more passanger service closures in that post Beeching period of around 1970-75ish Keswick ,Bridport, Swanage, Alresford, Minehead,Ilfracombe and as you say Alston and I'm sure there are quite a few more I can't think of right now

 

[Olaf]

Interesting ,and I can also recall reading a BR Regional Railways staff newsletter around 1991 ish suggesting some very lightly used routes might consider units where drivers issue tickets oviously to save money I guess

This problem goes away with the introduction of a national smartcard.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes there certainly were quite a few more passanger service closures in that post Beeching period of around 1970-75ish Keswick ,Bridport, Swanage, Alresford, Minehead,Ilfracombe and as you say Alston and I'm sure there are quite a few more I can't think of right now

Yarmouth - Lowestoft and Darlington - Richmond as well.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Wasn't no rail closures for the life of this parliament one of the coalition conditions? I don't think there is any commitment from the conservatives beyond that

Thats very open to confusion between passenger lines and freight only lines, think the government would be talking about passenger services not freight or diversionery chords

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Who remembers the Anlaby curve closure notice. Wasn't permission given for the closure but it remained open.
Let's not for get The Clayton west line. Or haltwhistle to Alston, another hotly contested closure and yet another line closed by a labour government.

Clayton West was a strange one. The only reason the passenger service survived as long as it did was because the line was there anyway to serve the coal mines at Emley and Park Mill. During the 1960s, the passenger service was used principally for local kids to reach the secondary school at Honley- as there was no post-13 provision in the whole of the HD8 area (Kirkburton/Denby Dale/Clayton West etc.).
In the late 1960s/early 70s a new secondary school opened at Shelley (technically it's in Skelmanthorpe, but never mind) but as many from the area continued to send their kids to Honley (and the mines were still open) the school trains remained to and from Clayton West.
The death-knell for the Clayton West branch was a combination of the setting up of PTEs in 1974 and the botched 'modernisation' of Emley Colliery, which had a very narrow but high-quality seam* which did not lend itself to automation. Fast-forward to the early 1980s and the eve of the miner's strike- Park Mill and Emley collieries were both slated for closure in part due to increased costs thanks to the flawed modernisation.
Once the pits closed, the full costs for maintaining the line fell upon WYPTE who sponsored the remaining infrequent passenger services. With passenger numbers falling due to a shift in demographics and competition from local buses, WYPTE understandably cut the funding for the line in favour of school bus services for the few Honley students remaining in the area.

*=Credit to my late maternal grandfather (who was an electrician working at Emley Colliery up until closure) for the information here.

 

[34D]

Clayton West was a strange one. The only reason the passenger service survived as long as it did was because the line was there anyway to serve the coal mines at Emley and Park Mill. During the 1960s, the passenger service was used principally for local kids to reach the secondary school at Honley- as there was no post-13 provision in the whole of the HD8 area (Kirkburton/Denby Dale/Clayton West etc.).
In the late 1960s/early 70s a new secondary school opened at Shelley (technically it's in Skelmanthorpe, but never mind) but as many from the area continued to send their kids to Honley (and the mines were still open) the school trains remained to and from Clayton West.
The death-knell for the Clayton West branch was a combination of the setting up of PTEs in 1974 and the botched 'modernisation' of Emley Colliery, which had a very narrow but high-quality seam* which did not lend itself to automation. Fast-forward to the early 1980s and the eve of the miner's strike- Park Mill and Emley collieries were both slated for closure in part due to increased costs thanks to the flawed modernisation.
Once the pits closed, the full costs for maintaining the line fell upon WYPTE who sponsored the remaining infrequent passenger services. With passenger numbers falling due to a shift in demographics and competition from local buses, WYPTE understandably cut the funding for the line in favour of school bus services for the few Honley students remaining in the area.

*=Credit to my late maternal grandfather (who was an electrician working at Emley Colliery up until closure) for the information here.

Very informative. One of only two WYPTE route closures, the other being Normanton-Altofts-Woodlesford which has now reopened to passenger trains (but without the station).

So are there any lines elsewhere in the country which could be at risk of closure?

 

[47802]

Personally I think there needs to be a review of the lines which require the highest subsidy and that would include Network Rails costs whether there is any freight on the line, and a look at all the options such as improving the service, do nothing, ways to reduce costs, possible closure, and replacement with a connecting bus service, and if its replacement with a connecting bus service, then that should be part of the franchise agreement which would have go through the same closure procedures as closure of a Rail Service.

I'm sure the above wont be popular on here but I don't believe all existing lines should carry on regardless, the money should go where its most cost effective, Unfortunately Governments with Balls to close a Rail Line's seem to thin on the ground at the moment.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I think there needs to be a review of the lines which require the highest subsidy and that would include Network Rails costs whether there is any freight on the line, and a look at all the options such as improving the service, do nothing, ways to reduce costs, possible closure, and replacement with a connecting bus service, and if its replacement with a connecting bus service, then that should be part of the franchise agreement which would have go through the same closure procedures as closure of a Rail Service.

I'm sure the above wont be popular on here but I don't believe all existing lines should carry on regardless, the money should go where its most cost effective, Unfortunately Governments with Balls to close a Rail Line's seem to thin on the ground at the moment.

We've tried all this before.

Bus replacements don't work. The railway network isn't big enough as it is. We should be reopening lines, not closing them.

Do you have an idea of how much running a line should cost, or do you just think we should slash away at our network willy nilly until someone somewhere decides we've gone far enough ?

Do we really want a Government with "the balls" to close lines ? What if they had "the balls" to close your own local line ? Would you still be prepared to sacrifice your areas economic well being on the alter of finding some sort of ill defined profitable railway, or would you start squealing?

We should really start looking at artificial costs such as rolling stock leasing and track access charges and ask whether these reflect the true costs of running local lines, rather than (as I suspect) inflating them.