Limitations on engineering works/minimum service requirements?

[pmcgurk]

I have just come back from an exhausting trek from Witham (Essex) to Cardiff and back for a minor sporting event . Yet again, there was no service on the Greater Anglia line from Witham to Liverpool St, with the dreaded bus replacement from Ingatestone onto the Central Line tube at Newbury park.

This is a repeating occurrence every winter and they have outdone themselves this time: there is no normal service on any weekend through the entirety of February and March, the first "normal" day is 15 April.

I know engineering work has to be done, and that the weekend is the least bad time to do it, but I am getting severely hacked off that this happens every single year, and that they seem to cram all the work into the February/March period (I'm guessing it's a financial year thing).

Do Network Rail have carte blanche to perform works at any time, and for any duration, with no thought to the leisure traveller who might just want to pop up to London once in a while? Is there no requirement to stagger the works so that they don't all land in the same period?

Side rant: insult added to injury with the closure on the same day of the Elizabeth Line central section, making the journey to Paddington even longer.

TIA for thoughts, facts, ideas about who to moan to.

 

[SynthD]

Leisure customers are thought to be flexible. Too much good work would be blocked, so NR do have control while asking around.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Operators have to agree to engineering work and they frequently don't agree and works gets moved or postponed. NR can very rarely impose them.

 

[Class 170101]

I have just come back from an exhausting trek from Witham (Essex) to Cardiff and back for a minor sporting event . Yet again, there was no service on the Greater Anglia line from Witham to Liverpool St, with the dreaded bus replacement from Ingatestone onto the Central Line tube at Newbury park.

I think you will find it was actually Shenfield to Liverpool Street this past weekend with buses between Ingatestone and Newbury Park according to RTT.

This is a repeating occurrence every winter and they have outdone themselves this time: there is no normal service on any weekend through the entirety of February and March, the first "normal" day is 15 April.

I know engineering work has to be done, and that the weekend is the least bad time to do it, but I am getting severely hacked off that this happens every single year, and that they seem to cram all the work into the February/March period (I'm guessing it's a financial year thing).

Probably also reflects demand. Much greater in the summer months than the winter months.

Do Network Rail have carte blanche to perform works at any time, and for any duration, with no thought to the leisure traveller who might just want to pop up to London once in a while? Is there no requirement to stagger the works so that they don't all land in the same period?

Technically yes although they are given guidance to deter bad possessions they don't always follow the guidance nor does it deter it seems, just see the thread about the WCML and the ECML both being closed on 18/19 February weekend.

Side rant: insult added to injury with the closure on the same day of the Elizabeth Line central section, making the journey to Paddington even longer.

Slightly longer journey perhaps versus the Elizabeth Line but not a big issue if the Central Line for Newbury Park to Liverpool Street and Circle Lines between Liverpool Street and Paddington are open.

TIA for thoughts, facts, ideas about who to moan to.

Direct it to GA customer services and perhaps also Network Rail since they are responsible for said works but I wouldn't hold your breath.

 

[The Planner]

Technically yes although they are given guidance to deter bad possessions they don't always follow the guidance nor does it deter it seems, just see the thread about the WCML and the ECML both being closed on 18/19 February weekend.

Not anymore.

 

[Bald Rick]

and that they seem to cram all the work into the February/March period (I'm guessing it's a financial year thing).

That time of year is chosen in agreement with GA, as it is the quietest time of year for leisure travel. Very simply, London to Suffolk / Norfolk at weekends gets pretty busy from Spring through to October, then November / December is popular with people coming up to London for a Christmas shopping, meals etc. That leaves Jan - March. Nothing to do with end of the FY.

Do Network Rail have carte blanche to perform works at any time, and for any duration, with no thought to the leisure traveller who might just want to pop up to London once in a while? Is there no requirement to stagger the works so that they don't all land in the same period?

As above, no Carte Blanche, all must be in agreement with the operators, who will usually look to minimise the number of passengers affected.

 

[Class 170101]

Not anymore.

sorry what bit does your above comment refer to please

 

[The Planner]

sorry what bit does your above comment refer to please

The block on the ECML is gone.

 

[Class 170101]

The block on the ECML is gone.

Ah Ok, is it mentioned in the other thread? apologies if I missed it.

 

[Bald Rick]

The block on the ECML is gone.

I thought it was still on!

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

Disruptive access is usually given short thrift by the TOCs unless it is emergency works.

Planning for blockades happen two years out and more whilst normal possessions are usually started 37 weeks out.

On the other hands, with slippage of the Cairstairs works, WCML freight and sleepers have been diverted up the ECML with only a few weeks notice which has massively impacted on planned work.

 

[The Planner]

Disruptive access is usually given short thrift by the TOCs unless it is emergency works.

Planning for blockades happen two years out and more whilst normal possessions are usually started 37 weeks out.

On the other hands, with slippage of the Cairstairs works, WCML freight and sleepers have been diverted up the ECML with only a few weeks notice which has massively impacted on planned work.

Even 29 and 54 hour weekends are planned 18 to 24 months out.

 

[Alfie1014]

Much of the commentary seems to be about the service on the GWML side being overcrowded in the morning inwards peak. Presumably it wouldn't be the end of the universe to start a few of the Paddington starters back from West Drayton or Slough to address this.

There still seem to be freight trains run down the Relief lines in the high peak. The old Southern Region long had a ban on freight services in the commuter area in the morning and evening peaks, and schedules worked around this. The GWML previously never needed to do this sort of thing, but it seems like a straightforward first fix for a capacity crunch.

That time of year is chosen in agreement with GA, as it is the quietest time of year for leisure travel. Very simply, London to Suffolk / Norfolk at weekends gets pretty busy from Spring through to October, then November / December is popular with people coming up to London for a Christmas shopping, meals etc. That leaves Jan - March. Nothing to do with end of the FY.




As above, no Carte Blanche, all must be in agreement with the operators, who will usually look to minimise the number of passengers affected.

Defo quieter time of year but with leisure travel becoming more important can it be sustainable going forward?

Saturday 28th Jan around 40 passengers joining the 11:24 direct service (1 hour 7 mins) to Liverpool Street from my local station.

Saturday 4th February only 6 passengers joining the same train, which only goes as far as Colchester (due to the engineering works) with journey taking 2 hours and 27 minutes with three changes including two of modes - train, train, bus, tube.

No easy solution but engineering work does suppress demand and can make many journeys undesirable/impractical.

Take to the roads - just a shame about roadworks on the A12 for the next 18 months or so!

 

[Facing Back]

Disruptive access is usually given short thrift by the TOCs unless it is emergency works.

Planning for blockades happen two years out and more whilst normal possessions are usually started 37 weeks out.

On the other hands, with slippage of the Cairstairs works, WCML freight and sleepers have been diverted up the ECML with only a few weeks notice which has massively impacted on planned work.

what is the difference between a blockade and a possession?

 

[Watershed]

what is the difference between a blockade and a possession?

A possession is any occasion on which the line is blocked for engineering works; a blockade implies a long possession or series of possessions relating to the same project.

 

[Facing Back]

A possession is any occasion on which the line is blocked for engineering works; a blockade implies a long possession or series of possessions relating to the same project.

got it. many thanks

 

[Bald Rick]

Defo quieter time of year but with leisure travel becoming more important can it be sustainable going forward?

What is the alternative to doing work at the quietest time of year?

 

[The Planner]

What is the alternative to doing work at the quietest time of year?

Clearly not doing it at all in the case of Carstairs!

 

[zwk500]

What is the alternative to doing work at the quietest time of year?

Doing it all in 5 minutes, silently, for thruppence ha'penny when people are sleeping.

 

[afc75]

I'm hoping they have enough buses this Saturday. West Ham/Arsenal home games, plus a few others in London.

The A12 is pretty horrendous on a Saturday daytime too. What works are being done that necessitate such a wide ranging closure? I had hoped this would be much reduced post Crossrail.

 

[Annetts key]

What is the alternative to doing work at the quietest time of year?

Having a network with sufficient diversionary routes, but of course, that would cost far too much money.

Next best, change the six foot to a twelve foot (separate the lines so that one can be closed and worked on while the other stays open) and have bidirectional signalling throughout. Oh dear, that’s still rather too expensive. Also impractical if there are structures like historic bridges, tunnels, cuttings, viaducts, stations (that can’t be altered)…

Maybe have a different system of work, so that some maintenance work can be done during the day, by using the signalling system to provide warnings of trains approaching to trackside staff or to hold signals at red to protect staff (without requiring complex forms/paperwork and the signallers manually putting reminder appliances on) rather than having the current pain in the a$$ system. Oh, TOCs would also have to agree gaps in the timetable so goodbye to continuous daytime clock face scheduling. Ahh, so that’s not going to happen.

Oh dear, back to closing at weekends again…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Feb 2023 ==

what is the difference between a blockade and a possession?

Blockade is generally a large or long possession, or where the line(s) are closed for a long period of time.

I was amused at this:

Normally, a six week line closure would be referred to as a “blockade” but during the consultation process the use of the word “blockade” became a very sensitive issue as it implied that Bath was not accessible, which wasn’t the case. Therefore, to ensure that tourists were not put off travelling to Bath, it was suggested that Network Rail should use a different description for the closure. As a result the acronym TPOD (Temporary Period of Disruption) was created, so the above happened in TPOD1!

Quote comes from Rail Engineer in an article about the GWML Electrification.

There have since been a number of other TPODs…

 

[Bald Rick]

I was amused at this:
Quote comes from Rail Engineer in an article about the GWML Electrification.

There have since been a number of other TPODs…

No, love, it’s not a raging hangover, it’s a Temporary Period of Disruption.

 

[mcmad]

Having a network with sufficient diversionary routes, but of course, that would cost far too much money.

Next best, change the six foot to a twelve foot (separate the lines so that one can be closed and worked on while the other stays open) and have bidirectional signalling throughout. Oh dear, that’s still rather too expensive. Also impractical if there are structures like historic bridges, tunnels, cuttings, viaducts, stations (that can’t be altered)…

Maybe have a different system of work, so that some maintenance work can be done during the day, by using the signalling system to provide warnings of trains approaching to trackside staff or to hold signals at red to protect staff (without requiring complex forms/paperwork and the signallers manually putting reminder appliances on) rather than having the current pain in the a$$ system. Oh, TOCs would also have to agree gaps in the timetable so goodbye to continuous daytime clock face scheduling. Ahh, so that’s not going to happen.

Oh dear, back to closing at weekends again…

That only works for 'routine maintenance' and other minor works too. The moment that Track or Structures need to do some serious work then its back to only option 1 working. Blockade has become a bit of a dirty word North of the border for TS too, not allowed to call them blockades or closures but can't remember what the term that we're to use is.

 

[Facing Back]

Blockade is generally a large or long possession, or where the line(s) are closed for a long period of time.

Thank you

 

[snowball]

The recent resignation of Chris Gibb as Chief Executive of Scottish Rail Holdings is thought to have been influenced by the Scottish Government having intervened to postpone possessions related to the Haymarket-Dalmeny electrification.

 

[Class 170101]

The recent resignation of Chris Gibb as Chief Executive of Scottish Rail Holdings is thought to have been influenced by the Scottish Government having intervened to postpone possessions related to the Haymarket-Dalmeny electrification.

Political interference claims over departure of Scottish rail chief Chris Gibb

The impending departure of one of the most senior figures on Scotland’s railways has come amid claims of political interference and "micro-management" by Transport Scotland officials, The Scotsman has learned.

www.scotsman.com

Political interference claims over departure of ScotRail parent firm Scottish Rail Holdings chief Chris Gibb

The impending departure of one of the most senior figures on Scotland’s railways has come amid claims of political interference and "micro-management" by Transport Scotland officials, The Scotsman has learned.

and

There has been persistent industry speculation since May that his role had been made difficult by ministerial interference. This was followed by transport minister and Fife SNP Jenny Gilruth postponing, at late notice, long-planned rail engineering work between Edinburgh and the Forth Bridge over the festive period because of its impact on Fife rail passengers.
One source told The Scotsman on November 24: "Chris Gibb announced his resignation to staff this week partly because of the above [work postponement] as well as being micro-managed by the transport minister and Transport Scotland. He will leave post in less than six weeks.
“Given his vast experience across the rail industry, this does not bode well and gives a flavour of how dysfunctional things are in the rail industry in Scotland at the moment." A senior industry figure corroborated that assessment.

Not sure if this has been widely discussed until now.

Maybe have a different system of work, so that some maintenance work can be done during the day, by using the signalling system to provide warnings of trains approaching to trackside staff or to hold signals at red to protect staff (without requiring complex forms/paperwork and the signallers manually putting reminder appliances on) rather than having the current pain in the a$$ system. Oh, TOCs would also have to agree gaps in the timetable so goodbye to continuous daytime clock face scheduling. Ahh, so that’s not going to happen.

Oh dear, back to closing at weekends again…

HOBC and TRS were delivered on parts of the network using a similar method as described but tended to leave large gaps in service depending upon the amount of signalling but these gaps could be between 75 and 90 minutes and some of these blocks were still supplemented by buses.

 

[The Planner]

HOBC and TRS were delivered on parts of the network using a similar method as described but tended to leave large gaps in service depending upon the amount of signalling but these gaps could be between 75 and 90 minutes and some of these blocks were still supplemented by buses.

The issue with HOBC is that it usually needs a good 8 hour shift to be worthwhile. Operators are far from keen to knock out first and last services to allow it to be efficient.

 

[Canary73]

I have just come back from an exhausting trek from Witham (Essex) to Cardiff and back for a minor sporting event . Yet again, there was no service on the Greater Anglia line from Witham to Liverpool St, with the dreaded bus replacement from Ingatestone onto the Central Line tube at Newbury park.

This is a repeating occurrence every winter and they have outdone themselves this time: there is no normal service on any weekend through the entirety of February and March, the first "normal" day is 15 April.

I know engineering work has to be done, and that the weekend is the least bad time to do it, but I am getting severely hacked off that this happens every single year, and that they seem to cram all the work into the February/March period (I'm guessing it's a financial year thing).

Do Network Rail have carte blanche to perform works at any time, and for any duration, with no thought to the leisure traveller who might just want to pop up to London once in a while? Is there no requirement to stagger the works so that they don't all land in the same period?

Side rant: insult added to injury with the closure on the same day of the Elizabeth Line central section, making the journey to Paddington even longer.

TIA for thoughts, facts, ideas about who to moan to.

This has been going on for decades - I live in Chelmsford and before that was always travelling up to Norwich for home games - I've managed three this season thanks to the engineering works and strikes. It has been a combination of OLE/track works, preparation for CrossRail but it must be one of the most overengineered lines in the country - I cannot recall a single Christmas/New Year/Easter period when part of the GEML is shut for one reason or another. In recent times GA customers get all the disruption but no actual benefit - journey times aren't any quicker. As GA gets all of the Schedule 4/8 payments there isn't much incentive to argue the toss. You'd have to ask when these long term/major disruptive works actually cease, noting that most of the last services on the GEML are also bus replacements. I know engineering/maintenance works are needed but it seems excessive on the GEML and the replacement bus shambles isn't worth bothering with.

 

[Class 170101]

The issue with HOBC is that it usually needs a good 8 hour shift to be worthwhile. Operators are far from keen to knock out first and last services to allow it to be efficient.

Even less keen now that a) buses are harder to come by and b) commuters aren't the bread and butter they used to be and so the leisure user becomes more important and they aren't exactly keen on buses.

This has been going on for decades - I live in Chelmsford and before that was always travelling up to Norwich for home games - I've managed three this season thanks to the engineering works and strikes. It has been a combination of OLE/track works, preparation for CrossRail but it must be one of the most overengineered lines in the country - I cannot recall a single Christmas/New Year/Easter period when part of the GEML is shut for one reason or another. In recent times GA customers get all the disruption but no actual benefit - journey times aren't any quicker. As GA gets all of the Schedule 4/8 payments there isn't much incentive to argue the toss. You'd have to ask when these long term/major disruptive works actually cease, noting that most of the last services on the GEML are also bus replacements. I know engineering/maintenance works are needed but it seems excessive on the GEML and the replacement bus shambles isn't worth bothering with.

You might be interested in this article then, survey link at the bottom of the article

Rail passengers can give Greater Anglia managers their views - Rail UK

Rail passengers can give Greater Anglia managers their views - Rail News

railuk.com

Rail passengers can give Greater Anglia managers their views

Rail passengers can talk directly to Greater Anglia rail managers during a ‘Let’s Talk’ event at London Liverpool Street station.


Focused primarily on passengers who use the train operator’s services in and out of London, the event will take place on Tuesday 28 February 2023 from 17:00 to 19:00.


Greater Anglia managers will be available to answer passengers’ questions, and listen to feedback and comments – with that input helping them to continually improve the service.

Those who cannot make the events but would like to contribute their feedback can do so via Greater Anglia’s online survey at greateranglia.co.uk/survey.

 

[Krokodil]

The issue with HOBC is that it usually needs a good 8 hour shift to be worthwhile. Operators are far from keen to knock out first and last services to allow it to be efficient.

Though it doesn't require the closure of both lines so it is possible to use pilotman working to keep trains moving, albeit only during the sparser late evening service. Ditto tampers etc. can work even when the other line is open for traffic.