Lille Loophole

[Mike395]

True; although in an ideal world, it would flag up on the turnstiles in the UK if a corresponding entry hadn't been recorded on the continent, so a UKBA member of staff could then check their passport.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I think your expecting a bit much of the numbskulls in UKBA

 

[bb21]

I don't get this. If we want to control our own borders then surely the best thing to do is to set up passport checks at St Pancras, airport-style. There is no point blaming the Belgian for doing nothing. Why should they? We have a method to stop people who are not legitimate coming into this country. Why do we not use it?

I have never used E* and, to be frank, I'm rather shocked by this revelation.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I'm more alarmed by the fact that UKBA rely almost entirely on border checks and have no other means of ascertaining if someone has entered the country illegally or overstayed their visa. They could also do with being a bit more welcoming to tourists instead of pretending to be the Gestapo

 

[shinkansen1966]

I'm more alarmed by the fact that UKBA rely almost entirely on border checks and have no other means of ascertaining if someone has entered the country illegally or overstayed their visa. They could also do with being a bit more welcoming to tourists instead of pretending to be the Gestapo

And herein lies the UK's problem. We have no ID cards. So once you get into this country, for instance via the Lille loophole, you can go undetected.

 

[Aictos]

passports are only checked at St. Pancras by French Border Police for travel from St. Pancras.

Passengers travelling to the UK have their passports checked by UKBA in Paris, Calais, Lille & Brussels before boarding the train

Wrong, passengers travelling to the UK from Brussels have their passports checked firstly by the French Border Police then by UKBA staff.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Wrong, passengers travelling to the UK from Brussels have their passports checked firstly by the French Border Police then by UKBA staff.

Why would the french want to undertake border checks in Brussels ? Wouldn't they be better off leaving that to Belgians ?

 

[33056]

Got a ticket check for the first time ever after arriving at St. Pancras (from Brussels) on Tuesday afternoon though I have heard of this happening before from others. It was UKBA staff doing the checking.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Got a ticket check for the first time ever after arriving at St. Pancras (from Brussels) on Tuesday afternoon though I have heard of this happening before from others. It was UKBA staff doing the checking.

What gives the right for UKBA to check a railway ticket ? What are they .. ticket inspectors or border control ?

 

[jon0844]

The problem is that once you're in the UK, it's easy to go down the asylum route. So you want to stop people getting here in the first place - which is why you put UKBA staff in France and Belgium.

I can now see that the trick is to say to the UKBA that you're only going to Lille, whereby I guess the UKBA can't do anything (it's not up to them to stop you boarding the train). As a result, there IS a definite problem here if people aren't checked as having alighted at Lille. A problem Eurostar will fix if they're fined heavily. Perhaps the checks at St Pancras are part of this - and the Daily Mail is simply late to get the story (by about ten years by the sounds of it!!).

A simple solution is the pick up only option, or to have a dedicated coach cut off (but that would mean changes to the train configuration, so rather unlikely to be done). I'd go with the first option, or you go back to doing passport checks ON the train - but that means doing the checks quickly so you can detain people presumably before hitting the UK, and then ensuring Eurostar takes them back at their cost.

I am sure that whatever happens, Eurostar will have to act if they become liable.

 

[Mike395]

What gives the right for UKBA to check a railway ticket ? What are they .. ticket inspectors or border control ?

UKBA officers have all the powers of the British police, when carrying out immigration-related duties, so that would surely include checking tickets to ensure the Lille loophole isnt being exploited?

 

[Aictos]

Why would the french want to undertake border checks in Brussels ? Wouldn't they be better off leaving that to Belgians ?

I know the difference between the Belgian and French national flags and upon my very recent day out to Belgium, it was certainly the French who were checking passports out of the UK and also to the UK.

I think it's because they have so much hassle with illegals trying to get to the UK, they have to be proactive - As France is the last Schagen signatory before entering the UK even if travelling to and from Belgium, the French have every right to check passports.

 

[Oracle]

I think the French Border Police have authority over the HS as far as the tunnel? The French have a little bit of UK soil allocated to them at Folkestone [thus a small enclave] and the UK has little bits in Belgium and France, the latter for the first time since Henry VIII lost us Calais.

 

[WestCoast]

I know the difference between the Belgian and French national flags and upon my very recent day out to Belgium, it was certainly the French who were checking passports out of the UK and also to the UK.

I think it's because they have so much hassle with illegals trying to get to the UK, they have to be proactive - As France is the last Schagen signatory before entering the UK even if travelling to and from Belgium, the French have every right to check passports.

Yes, you are checked entering or leaving the Schengen zone by whichever country. Since France is the first country in the Schengen zone that the train passes through, it's their officers at St Pancras.
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UKBA officers have all the powers of the British police, when carrying out immigration-related duties, so that would surely include checking tickets to ensure the Lille loophole isnt being exploited?

While on Belgian or French soil they don't have a right to do anything without official permission from the relevant authority.

 

[shinkansen1966]

A simple solution is the pick up only option, or to have a dedicated coach cut off

And thus leaving Eurostar with the absurd situation of being able to pick up passengers at Lille bound for Brussels. But not pick up passengers at Brussels bound for Lille only.

The easiest way to remove the Lille loophole is to remove the loophole altogether and the UK join Schengen.

 

[33056]

What gives the right for UKBA to check a railway ticket ? What are they .. ticket inspectors or border control ?

But it is an easy way of finding out who should have got off at Lille.

 

[WestCoast]

Using the Lille loophole is also fare evasion, could Eurostar prosecute?

Oh, and what about the Calais loophole from Paris?

 

[Mike395]

While on Belgian or French soil they don't have a right to do anything without official permission from the relevant authority.

True, but I was referring to the ticket checks by UKBA staff at St Pancras

 

[shinkansen1966]

Using the Lille loophole is also fare evasion, could Eurostar prosecute?

Does anyone actually know the Eurostar penalty fare policy. For instance, can you excess on board ?

 

[WestCoast]

Does anyone actually know the Eurostar penalty fare policy. For instance, can you excess on board ?

No idea. I am sure I remember that in the early days they checked tickets onboard. Nowadays, ticket checks are non-existent.
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The easiest way to remove the Lille loophole is to remove the loophole altogether and the UK join Schengen.

Well, yes, but people associate Schengen with EU control over Britain. This is despite the fact that some non-EU countries are members of Schengen!

 

[HSTEd]

Either the UK joins Schengen or UKBA personel could board the train at Lille and check passports before allowing the train to move, but that would be nightmare on dwell times.

 

[jon0844]

Could still be quicker than a 377 changing power at Farringdon...

Sent from my Sinclair Spectrum via Tapatalk

 

[rmt-driver]

Can you go London to Ebbsfleet on e* , no.. So get rid of his Paris Brussels to Lille nonsense. Pick up only!!

 

[radamfi]

Can you go London to Ebbsfleet on e* , no.. So get rid of his Paris Brussels to Lille nonsense. Pick up only!!

But there are trains every 15 minutes from London to Ebbsfleet! It is also only 26 miles. Brussels to Lille is much further and the Eurostar service provides about half of the service between the two cities, with the rest made up of TGVs. I suppose you could run extra TGVs to make up the difference, but the Lille to Brussels traffic is a significant part of the business case for the Brussels to London Eurostar service. The new timetable from 11 December has all London to Brussels trains stopping at Lille with a significant cut in trains, indicating that this route isn't that profitable, and they need the Brussels to Lille business. The extra resources required to run extra TGVs instead of carrying Lille to Brussels passengers on Eurostar are quite substantial, hardly worth this unnecessary duplication just to keep UKBA happy.

 

[johnnychips]

If you want to travel from Brussels-Lille, a 'normal' Belgian train to Lille Flanders takes about 1h 45 changing once. By TGV/Eurostar is 45 mins to Lille Europe. However if you catch the TGV you do not have to go through all the baggage/customs palaver that you do for the Eurostar; that can easily take 30 mins. So if I were a bona fide passenger to Lille I would certainly avoid the Eurostar if possible.

 

[radamfi]

Oh, and what about the Calais loophole from Paris?

Just checked the Eurostar timetable from 11 December and it seems Paris to London trains don't stop at Calais. The London to Calais service is provided exclusively by Brussels trains. Just checked www.voyages-sncf.fr and you can't buy a ticket on Eurostar from Lille to Calais. But Brussels to Calais is available so is a similar loophole to Brussels to Lille.

 

[WestCoast]

Just checked the Eurostar timetable from 11 December and it seems Paris to London trains don't stop at Calais. The London to Calais service is provided exclusively by Brussels trains. Just checked www.voyages-sncf.fr and you can't buy a ticket on Eurostar from Lille to Calais. But Brussels to Calais is available so is a similar loophole to Brussels to Lille.

Well, I suspect that now the media has made it quite high-profile there will be a few more chancers.

I do often wonder why 'so many people' allegedly want to claim asylum in Britain over other EU countries, as this seems to be one of the main stated reasons why Britain has closed borders. Relatives already living here? A more favourable process? English speaking?

I can't help thinking that France and Belgium really can't see the problem with the open borders since they are so used to Schengen. Borders are treated very differently in continental Europe nowadays. My cousin crosses an international border to go to work and to go shopping (Aachen, Germany to the Netherlands) on a daily basis, locals think nothing of it.

 

[lemonic]

Just checked the Eurostar timetable from 11 December and it seems Paris to London trains don't stop at Calais. The London to Calais service is provided exclusively by Brussels trains. Just checked www.voyages-sncf.fr and you can't buy a ticket on Eurostar from Lille to Calais. But Brussels to Calais is available so is a similar loophole to Brussels to Lille.

As far as I am aware, the stops at Calais-Frethun used to always be provided by Paris trains until maybe only a year or two ago, yet now they are exclusively provided by Brussels trains. I assume this is because Brussels trains are emptier, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if more people travel London-Lille on a Brussels train than London-Brussels from recent experiences. However it does lead to the situation of a 1h51 non-stop London to Brussels journey taking over 20 minutes longer as it stops at Ebbsfleet, Calais and Lille. Unfortunately, it seems that quite a few Eurostar trains to Brussels now stop at all three stations.

 

[WestCoast]

Unfortunately, it seems that quite a few Eurostar trains to Brussels now stop at all three stations.

Doesn't surprise me really, since London and Paris are both major business and leisure destinations, whereas Brussels is more dependent on business and diplomatic trade.

I think Eurostar or indeed DB expanding direct services beyond Brussels will be the key. However, this border issue won't disappear. This could become the Rotterdam, Liege, Brussels, Lille and Calais loopholes!

 

[jon0844]

I do often wonder why 'so many people' allegedly want to claim asylum in Britain over other EU countries, as this seems to be one of the main stated reasons why Britain has closed borders. Relatives already living here? A more favourable process? English speaking?

They don't want asylum, they really want to come in undetected and get jobs illegally, which by all accounts seems dead easy to do.

The programme on Sky One showed just how useless the Home Office was/is, and that even if you find them by chance it seems quite easy to disappear if you're bailed. Losing your passport also seems like a good way to avoid being deported too.

That said, I am not so sure this country is quite as good to come to as it was.