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Lille Loophole
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WestCoast
Established Member
Schengen is about more than open borders though. The Agreement basically involves the notion that the participating countries must standardise their visa and immigration policies to a certain degree. A foreign visitor from outside the EU/EEA is now issued with a Schengen visa for access to all Schengen countries. Naturally, this involves a lot of co-operation and intelligence sharing on many matters between members e.t.c.
You can imagine what the eurosceptics think of this idea...
You can imagine what the eurosceptics think of this idea...
Yes, but Lichtenstein is basically a medium sized town surrounded by mountains with lots and lots of businesses. It has no airport. Really not the same. Ireland probably could join the Schengen free movement area, if it was willing to rip up the free movement treaty with the UK and build a fence along the border.
If that happened, I seriously think it would make us rethink our reluctance to join Schengen.
My comment about Liechtenstein was a bit tongue-in-cheek. But they did actually have (albeit infrequent) border controls with Switzerland since Switzerland joined Schengen. But of course regular border controls between NI and ROI would be a big no-no!
I haven't seen any news about Liechtenstein joining Schengen on the BBC, while it seems to be considered newsworthy elsewhere in Europe.
WestCoast
Established Member
Interestingly, Gibraltar isn't part of Schengen, so there are full border checks between Spain and Gibraltar, although the Spanish only seem to do spot-checks on passports/ID cards. Probably a unique situation in Europe, considering the size of Gibraltar.
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On another note, this year's 'immigration scandal' of not scanning EU passports/ID cards to speed up the process made me laugh. Many times I've passed immigration in numerous EU countries and the official has barely even looked at my passport, never mind scanned it! A few times they haven't even opened it! It was made out to be such a big deal in the British papers too!
I have a new chipped passport and from memory it hasn't been scanned in Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Denmark, France, Italy or Greece. I travel to Germany and the Netherlands regularly and its not checked every time.
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I must say that real scenes of illegal immigration can be awful. I mention this as The Daily Mail and similar press seems to believe that Britain is the only country which is affected by illegal immigration. In 2006, almost 32,000 illegal immigrants arrived by boat in the Spanish Canary Islands off the coast of Africa. These people often arrived starving and in desperate need of medical attention. They all had to be processed and in many cases were sent to mainland Spain because local facilities couldn't cope with them. There were many terrible scenes on beaches.
Thankfully, Spain has worked closely with Mauritania (where they were setting sail from) and the numbers have fallen significantly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On another note, this year's 'immigration scandal' of not scanning EU passports/ID cards to speed up the process made me laugh. Many times I've passed immigration in numerous EU countries and the official has barely even looked at my passport, never mind scanned it! A few times they haven't even opened it! It was made out to be such a big deal in the British papers too!
I have a new chipped passport and from memory it hasn't been scanned in Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Denmark, France, Italy or Greece. I travel to Germany and the Netherlands regularly and its not checked every time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I must say that real scenes of illegal immigration can be awful. I mention this as The Daily Mail and similar press seems to believe that Britain is the only country which is affected by illegal immigration. In 2006, almost 32,000 illegal immigrants arrived by boat in the Spanish Canary Islands off the coast of Africa. These people often arrived starving and in desperate need of medical attention. They all had to be processed and in many cases were sent to mainland Spain because local facilities couldn't cope with them. There were many terrible scenes on beaches.
Thankfully, Spain has worked closely with Mauritania (where they were setting sail from) and the numbers have fallen significantly.
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When I came off the Eurostar from Paris yesterday evening, there was a large queue of people having their passports checked in the St Pancras arrivals area. People getting off my train were separated from this queue by temporary barriers so I am guessing that it was passengers from a Brussels train being checked.
Sounds like they're doing something, but just out of interest - how rigid/tall were these temporary barriers? Would it be feasible for someone to see the passport checks and get over the barriers to go out with the ex-Paris arrivals?
Yes, I thought at the time that this would be easy to do.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
That entire hall is saturated with CCTV; I rather suspect that anyone crossing the barriers would be inviting some very close scrutiny...
shinkansen1966
Member
The Eurostar train Lille Loophole has now been closed.
Eurostar trains no longer carry passengers from Brussels to Lille. Though a ticket for a journey in the other direction is still possible.
Looks like the choice was between providing better UKBA checks preventing the Lille Loophole or inconveniencing Eurostar passengers by preventing them from travelling between Brussels and Lille. The British Home Office appears to prefer inconveniencing passengers by restricting their choice of trains from Brussels towards the UK.
source: Thomas Cook travel and Eurostar web site booking section.
Eurostar trains no longer carry passengers from Brussels to Lille. Though a ticket for a journey in the other direction is still possible.
Looks like the choice was between providing better UKBA checks preventing the Lille Loophole or inconveniencing Eurostar passengers by preventing them from travelling between Brussels and Lille. The British Home Office appears to prefer inconveniencing passengers by restricting their choice of trains from Brussels towards the UK.
source: Thomas Cook travel and Eurostar web site booking section.
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I don't really get how the "loophole" did work.
Back when there was still sometime a Calais stop in Paris >> London eurostars, i once used it to do Paris-Calais.
I was told i would need a passport/id card for the journey even thought i would stop at Calais, and i did go though UK border control at Paris Nord, so there was no loophole.
Back when there was still sometime a Calais stop in Paris >> London eurostars, i once used it to do Paris-Calais.
I was told i would need a passport/id card for the journey even thought i would stop at Calais, and i did go though UK border control at Paris Nord, so there was no loophole.
I travelled from Brussels to London on the Eurostar maybe three, four weeks ago. Before the journey I'd been sent an email from Eurostar saying that additional passport checks would be made on arrival at St Pancras, and they duly were. However, additionally, several French border police got on the train at Lille, proceeded to check passports, and then got off when the train made a special stop for them at Calais-Frethun.
Somewhat over the top I thought. Not least as, as on other recent travels I was surprised to find that citizens of EU states that have ID cards can travel to Georgia just with their ID cards, despite the fact (whatever the fantasies of their current President, much EU-flag flying by government offices there, and redesign of their own passports to make them look near-identical to EU ones) that Georgia has no chance whatsoever of EU membership in the foreseeable future,if ever.,,,
Somewhat over the top I thought. Not least as, as on other recent travels I was surprised to find that citizens of EU states that have ID cards can travel to Georgia just with their ID cards, despite the fact (whatever the fantasies of their current President, much EU-flag flying by government offices there, and redesign of their own passports to make them look near-identical to EU ones) that Georgia has no chance whatsoever of EU membership in the foreseeable future,if ever.,,,
Presumably this will further reduce the profitability of the London to Brussels service. If DB feel they need to do the same I can't see how the Amsterdam/Frankfurt to London trains will be profitable if they only carry passengers disembarking in the UK.
Yet another negative aspect of the UK not being part of the Schengen area.
Failed Unit
Established Member
The passport problems ultimately still kill off regional eurostar.
(pick you destination north of London) - Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Doncaster, peterbourgh, stratford International, Ashford international may get a flow of people in the Uk and be profitable, but no way of checking passports in the tunnel means it can't happen and as we know Doncaster - Paris will never get enough passengers to justify.
(pick you destination north of London) - Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Doncaster, peterbourgh, stratford International, Ashford international may get a flow of people in the Uk and be profitable, but no way of checking passports in the tunnel means it can't happen and as we know Doncaster - Paris will never get enough passengers to justify.
Just came back from Brussels. There were signs up for passengers for Lille / Calais only, so I presume you can now travel to these destinations again.
Long queues at Brussels for passport control - Belgian and UK. Uk passport control ask to see your ticket and stamp it.
Checks and queues again in London on arrival. Presumably making sure that everyone has a passport and a stamped ticket.
Lots of grumbling passengers and overheard 2 people independently saying they would fly next time.
Long queues at Brussels for passport control - Belgian and UK. Uk passport control ask to see your ticket and stamp it.
Checks and queues again in London on arrival. Presumably making sure that everyone has a passport and a stamped ticket.
Lots of grumbling passengers and overheard 2 people independently saying they would fly next time.
starrymarkb
Established Member
TBH Flying isn't much better. Had a very long wait at Bristol Airport for passport control. We were so long getting through that our bags had been dumped off the baggage conveyor!
They might say that.
They might DO that.
They'll then realise all the reasons they took the train and not do it again.
Flying is the only way for a lot of people, but doing Paris or Brussels to London is better by train for a multitude of reasons. A queue for passport control is not a reason to cut off your nose....
They might DO that.
They'll then realise all the reasons they took the train and not do it again.
Flying is the only way for a lot of people, but doing Paris or Brussels to London is better by train for a multitude of reasons. A queue for passport control is not a reason to cut off your nose....
Trouble is, its a) a queue for ticket gates, b) a queue for Belgian passport control, c) a queue for UK passport control, d) a queue for security....a train and e) a queue for UK passport control again. And in Brussels all in a fairly hot and claustrophobic terminal. If your meeting is a bit out of town in Brussels, and you don't live in central London then I can see why flying might look attractive again.
WestCoast
Established Member
I suspect the immigration queues are down to the UK Border Agency and their recent cutbacks that have been so well publicised (e.g. at Heathrow). The reason I say this is because at continental Eurostar stations you have the unusal situation of French or Belgian emigration control (which is compulsory because of Schengen) followed immediately afterwards by the UK immigration control in the same area.
What I witnessed recently at Gare du Nord in Paris was that the UK desks were understaffed which led to queues backing up past French officers, which meant they had to slow down. Why the UK Border Agency can't get some of those E-Passport gates like at the airports I don't know.
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Of course the passport control queues and security lines are at the airports as well, especially Heathrow!
Plus, Eurostar security is really just a cursory check compared to the more thorough procedures at airports.
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Yes although at airports you rarely get two passport checks exiting. Also, that Eurostar loses a big advantage over planes if the security and passport checks become just as much a hassle as those at airports. I turned up a whole hour early and only had ten minutes to spare to catch train.
WestCoast
Established Member
It depends where you're going as to whether to plane or train is more convenient. I actually quite like taking the Hull to Rotterdam or Zeebrugge ferry, which is a slow and sometimes pricey option but very enjoyable nonetheless.
However, it does seem that people are becoming more frustrated at the apparent consequences of cuts within the UK Border Agency. It doesn't help that they are very keen to scan your biometric passport (you'll have one if your passport isn't more than about 5 years old) when other authorities are happy with a visual check - it takes some time.
However, it does seem that people are becoming more frustrated at the apparent consequences of cuts within the UK Border Agency. It doesn't help that they are very keen to scan your biometric passport (you'll have one if your passport isn't more than about 5 years old) when other authorities are happy with a visual check - it takes some time.
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I had a look at the Belgian Railways European ticket website. Recently it wasn't even showing Brussels to Lille tickets via Eurostar (only TGV/traditional trains) but now it shows the Eurostar journeys but not allowing online purchase saying
"Please buy your tickets at a local counter for this part of your journey."
"Please buy your tickets at a local counter for this part of your journey."
I've not been on Eurostar for nearly two years now, so perhaps things have got worse, but even though there are queues for different things - they're not anything like the same as flying.
Arrive at St Pancras, maybe a short queue to get through the ticket gate. Then a queue for security, which still takes just a couple of minutes in all of my travels.
Then an equally short queue for French passport, and British (if they are there, which is rare).
When it comes to boarding, no queue at all unless you really want to.
Adding in another queue upon arrival back in the UK for passport checking shouldn't much hardship, as long as the queues aren't too long - and that's a manageable problem.
For the convenience of getting on the train, finding my seat and getting out the laptop and relaxing, knowing there's no safety briefing, no need to switch things off or stow them away for take off, or landing... No, if a train is a viable option, I'll pick it over flying almost every time.
Once trains go beyond Brussels and Paris, I am sure a lot of people will be picking the train over flying. Some people will need the (perceived) speed of flying, and some people will be close to an airport which gives it an advantage, but many others will realise the benefits of being more productive on the time spent on the train. Rather than merely travelling, you could be working the whole time - with phone/Internet working without ridiculous charges* etc.
* I accept data roaming is a rip off now, but there are ways to reduce costs and I hope the newer trains will have Wi-Fi anyway.
Possibly, although we are still a pretty good place to do business. With things like the Queen's Jubilee and the Olympics, I think many tourists will still want to come for the foreseeable future, immigration delays or not.
We still go to the US don't we? I certainly do, and I've had plenty of long queues at immigration there. So what - a couple of hours of grief for a nice holiday or business trip? Compared to sitting at home, not queueing at all, but missing out... Sometimes a little bit of hassle is worth it, or you'll never do anything.
I'm sure that's how a lot of people think too, which is probably why the UKBA felt it could get away with what it did as people would still keep queuing up. I mean, people still use Ryanair and accept the hoops they have to jump through.
Don't get me wrong - I am not saying it's perfectly okay to have long queues and we shouldn't try and reduce them, but I doubt we're at the point where people will stay away.
We still go to the US don't we? I certainly do, and I've had plenty of long queues at immigration there. So what - a couple of hours of grief for a nice holiday or business trip? Compared to sitting at home, not queueing at all, but missing out... Sometimes a little bit of hassle is worth it, or you'll never do anything.
I'm sure that's how a lot of people think too, which is probably why the UKBA felt it could get away with what it did as people would still keep queuing up. I mean, people still use Ryanair and accept the hoops they have to jump through.
Don't get me wrong - I am not saying it's perfectly okay to have long queues and we shouldn't try and reduce them, but I doubt we're at the point where people will stay away.
Of course many people still come to the UK and USA. So I don't think it is something to get too worried about. But people living in the UK can't go anywhere without going through passport control so if we go to the USA or to mainland Europe we still have passport control, albeit the USA being worse. People in the Schengen area have a lot of choice of places to go without such hassle.
Yes they do. But I am sure they'll go where they want to go, not because of how easy it is.
Driving along an E-road from one country to the next is wonderful, but as we're an island it sort of feels okay to have the extra checks. Perhaps by train it feels odd, compared to flying, but it's what we're all used to.
I'd love to become part of the Schengen area though.
Driving along an E-road from one country to the next is wonderful, but as we're an island it sort of feels okay to have the extra checks. Perhaps by train it feels odd, compared to flying, but it's what we're all used to.
I'd love to become part of the Schengen area though.
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