Lighting quality on trains: are you bothered?

[BRX]

You could say that about all manner of aspects of lazy train design, such as how the abomination that is the Fainsa Sophia was even allowed to enter the market, or why it's OK to lose window alignment in 1st on 80x just to squeeze in one single seat.

There's a lazy design approach throughout the industry I would say; you also see it in station environments and just about anything that Network Rail does.

 

[SirDanielGooch]

As an autistic person living in the Taunton area, having to choose between sensory overload by sight (IET) or sensory overload by smell (Voyager) every time I travel by train is a particular delight…

Whoever did the interior design on the GWR IETs shouldnt be allowed near a pencil and paper again, one of the worst interiors on the network imo. Just an absolutely horrible place to be for a journey.

 

[Alfie1014]

I’ve noticed on GAs 720 that when entering the Liverpool Street tunnel on a bright day the lighting increases in intensity, is this automatic or a driver controlled thing and do other Aventras do it does anyone know?

 

[Irascible]

[GWR IET]Just an absolutely horrible place to be for a journey.

That I can agree on, even if not lighting specific - one reason I like the train for longer distance travel is I can ( could! ) get off feeling as relaxed - ore more so - than when I got on. Not with those things.

Dim incandescent bulbs that confused my eyes as to whether they should be treating it as day or night, and flickering tubes weren't pleasant either, poor lighting is not a modern phenomenon. At least the soundproofing is improving, just have to work on the rest of the ambience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That I can agree on, even if not lighting specific - one reason I like the train for longer distance travel is I can ( could! ) get off feeling as relaxed - ore more so - than when I got on. Not with those things.

Dim incandescent bulbs that confused my eyes as to whether they should be treating it as day or night, and flickering tubes weren't pleasant either, poor lighting is not a modern phenomenon. At least the soundproofing is improving, just have to work on the rest of the ambience.

I think some trains have got it right in ambiance terms. I think the Class 397 is pretty much bang on.

It just requires considering it to be important and paying a little more.

 

[E27007]

The lighting is controlled to a standard, I have personally changed hundreds of fluorescent tube lights on the fleet of 455 units, i have no idea why they had to be changed, there was no discernible difference in the lighting before or after, apparently the tubes were of the "wrong" specification

 

[prod_pep]

I really do like the move to cool, pure white lighting on train interiors in general, but sometimes it is far too bright. The 777s are an example of this with a much better colour temperature than the 507/8s, whose lighting is overly warm in tone. The 777 lighting is much too intense, so much so that I prefer the dingier ambience of a 507/8. Some of the recent replacement diffusers on the 507/8s are decidedly blue in tone, more 'daylight white' than anything else, and these clash horribly with the old ones. The daylight tones can work for lamps, spotlights etc., but as a general light source on trains, they're unpleasant.

Northern's refurbished 323s are a perfect compromise for me in that the cool white lighting is covered which makes all the difference. Nice and bright but not so much you can almost feel your eyeballs burning.

Personally, I dislike warm white lighting in general and find it depressing. At home, I use cool white lighting throughout and just use lamps when reduced intensity is required. It looks and feels modern but still very comfortable to me.

 

[Irascible]

I'd rather have no light than cold light, I diubt there'll ever be a consensus on temperature. Very much depends on the rest of the interior too.

No idea what "modern" light is meant to be though!

 

[Annetts key]

I’m not sure that Voyagers are a good example.
Here’s a photo from a journey from yesterday.
It does not show up very well, but at least two different colour temperature tubes have been used. This is the main lighting. One tube type is considerably more ‘yellow’ than the others.

They look too dingy for my liking.



The best lighting on a trip that I have been on, was many, many years ago, back when it was still BR. I got permission to travel on a ECS HST 125. The guard asked me what I thought of his new uniform. He thought it looked more like a navy uniform. Anyway, he wanted a snooze, so asked if it was okay if he switched the lights off. To which I agreed

 

[Skytower]

I’m glad to have found this thread, because I now know it isn’t just me! I was travelling back from Truro to Plymouth the other evening on a GWR Castle unit, and genuinely hated the lighting - it was really hurting my eyes. I suffer from uveitis which is an eye condition that is often aggravated by overly bright conditions.

In contrast (ha!), I have in the past found the voyagers to be much cosier with their lighting. Just a shame about the awful smell.

 

[Mikey C]

I would suggest that there should be a difference in the lighting levels between urban commuter trains and longer distance ones.

Urban commuter trains you would expect to be brighter, as the journeys are shorter, more people are standing and there's more chance of "antisocial" behaviour. Brighter lighting makes people feel more secure.

 

[lookapigeon]

I think peak good taste lighting was on modern trains was the Southeastern Electrostars circa 2008ish on the longer distance routes into Kent.

Gentle and diffused enough to be not jarring when on a late night journey, yet there was the option for a reading light above the seat if you needed a boost.

Everything else more recent has been brash and prison-like.

A lot of people don't also seem to understand the importance or care for colour temperature (Kelvins)and pick horrifically cold LED lightbulbs for usage at home, it is pretty obvious when I walk home and see people's living rooms lit in a very harsh cold light.

 

[yorksrob]

I think peak good taste lighting was on modern trains was the Southeastern Electrostars circa 2008ish on the longer distance routes into Kent.

Gentle and diffused enough to be not jarring when on a late night journey, yet there was the option for a reading light above the seat if you needed a boost.

Everything else more recent has been brash and prison-like.

A lot of people don't also seem to understand the importance or care for colour temperature (Kelvins)and pick horrifically cold LED lightbulbs for usage at home, it is pretty obvious when I walk home and see people's living rooms lit in a very harsh cold light.

Yes, they are probably the best post-slammer trains around.

 

[bramling]

Yes, they are probably the best post-slammer trains around.

It’s very ironic that one of the generally considered best interiors was specified by none other than Connex!

 

[yorksrob]

It’s very ironic that one of the generally considered best interiors was specified by none other than Connex!

It is indeed - but then again, unlike NSE on the Bournemouth line, they ultimately killed off first class !

 

[prod_pep]

A lot of people don't also seem to understand the importance or care for colour temperature (Kelvins)and pick horrifically cold LED lightbulbs for usage at home, it is pretty obvious when I walk home and see people's living rooms lit in a very harsh cold light.

Or perhaps they just prefer cool LED lighting? Nothing whatsoever wrong with that. It's purely a matter of personal taste: I loathe warm white as it's too dingy and depressing, so all my bulbs at home are cool white.

It's also much harder to find cool white bulbs in supermarkets in my experience, suggesting this is a choice rather than anything enforced.

 

[bramling]

Or perhaps they just prefer cool LED lighting? Nothing whatsoever wrong with that. It's purely a matter of personal taste: I loathe warm white as it's too dingy and depressing, so all my bulbs at home are cool white.

It's also much harder to find cool white bulbs in supermarkets in my experience, suggesting this is a choice rather than anything enforced.

I suspect a lot of people simply pick the first bulb they come across. A generation ago you simply picked up a tungsten bulb and the main choice was whether you needed 25, 40, 60 or 100 watts. The only other complexity might be what type of cap or if you were very adventurous you might be looking for a candle shape.

My impression now is that many people, especially older people, find choosing lightbulbs a pretty daunting experience, often not really understanding what they’re buying. In many cases I suspect people simply end up with whatever they end up with, and with LEDs in particular still being comparatively expensive they will live with it unless they find it absolutely unbearable.

My place is now largely LED, albeit mainly ones which closely emulate filament bulbs - and to be fair they’re not a bad match at all, certainly much better than fluorescent lamps. However we have still had a few applications which simply didn’t work out well in practice for whatever reason. In my case I replaced them and used the surplus lamps elsewhere (including a couple in my office at work!), however it was still mildly irritating given the cost. In a couple of fittings we couldn’t get the right look/feel at all, and had to revert to filament lamps for which I purchased a stash to last well into the future. LEDs lack the characteristic “sparkle” of filament lamps, which means the light can appear very dull and flat especially in old-fashioned fittings.

 

[prod_pep]

I suspect a lot of people simply pick the first bulb they come across.

I dare say you're right, but the odds of picking a cool white bulb at random in my experience are slim. In my local Tesco, something like 80% of the bulb selection is warm white and you have to go scavenging to find the cool ones.

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

I'm incredibly bothered about lighting on trains - particularly at night. The awful, harsh lighting on many trains now makes it nigh impossible to take a nap, or even merely have a relaxing journey.

If travelling at night, I'll often opt for a coach if there's one available, as the heavily subdued lighting (if any) allows you to actually have a relaxing trip.

An overnight coach may be painfully slow and perhaps a bit cramped, but the lighting is absolutely bliss...

Even some buses have got it right - with dimmed blue lights at night (which also allow you to see out the window!), and even surprisingly cosy pink lights on some Enviro 200 MMCs...

 

[satisnek]

This thread has made me realise that the development of carriage interior lighting has, to me, been a process similar to that of boiling frogs. The lighting in late Mark 1/early Mark 2 stock seemed bright at the time, but with just a single row of tubes down the carriage, wouldn't be by today's standards.

However, it must be remembered that for those of us over 50, our memories may have been corrupted by Mark 1 compos with the wall lights off and ceiling lights dimmed (or perhaps removed!). Thinking back to the SR CIG/BIG/VEP stock as built, with all those bulbs in the ceiling (2 x 40W(?) per seating bay on each side), they would have been pretty bright.

 

[yorksrob]

This thread has made me realise that the development of carriage interior lighting has, to me, been a process similar to that of boiling frogs. The lighting in late Mark 1/early Mark 2 stock seemed bright at the time, but with just a single row of tubes down the carriage, wouldn't be by today's standards.

However, it must be remembered that for those of us over 50, our memories may have been corrupted by Mark 1 compos with the wall lights off and ceiling lights dimmed (or perhaps removed!). Thinking back to the SR CIG/BIG/VEP stock as built, with all those bulbs in the ceiling (2 x 40W(?) per seating bay on each side), they would have been pretty bright.

Most just had the two rows of bulbs along the ceiling, so wasn't overly bright. Only the express stock had the additional reading lights (but not the phase 2 CIG's).

 

[occone]

Much as it pains me to find a positive thing about Voyagers, they really get the ambience right.

* Spotlights down the aisles to direct light to where it's needed
* Ambient sideways lighting for a good distribution of gentle light
* Luggage rack accent lights

Unrelated but I noticed once that the seat reservation signs dim when the train is between stations, then go to full brightness when at a station. Have a look next time you use one. It doesn't add to the overall brightness levels but it's a nice detail.

Also I distinctly recall a CrossCountry Voyager that had purple luggage rack accent lights (in about 2019 maybe). It looked pretty cool but I've never seen it since.

Pendolinos are the same, although the current one I'm on has half the spotlights out which is disappointing.

 

[Ant158]

The move towards bright white LED everywhere from car headlights to street lighting really bugs me. There is no need in most circumstances for the light to be this bright.

On Northern’s Class 150s the lighting is really bright, and as there are no diffusers covering the exposed bulbs, makes travel especially at night really uncomfortable. To the point that I have had to start wearing tinted glasses while travelling.

 

[Route115?]

The lighting is fine on the underground. At times it can be too dim on the Chiltern line even if there are no failed tubes. Mind you, I am am getting older and the ability to cope with dim light decreases as one ages. I rather liked individual reading lights although I dare say that they are too expensive to maintain now. Obviously going from bright sunlight into a tunnel will always cause problems.

 

[Purple Train]

The 777s are hideously bright, but equally the lighting on the Capitalstars is far too dim, and makes it feel astonishingly dingy, especially on a run through slightly less salubrious areas.
I concur with those who say that the lighting on the Voyagers is good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 777s are hideously bright, but equally the lighting on the Capitalstars is far too dim, and makes it feel astonishingly dingy, especially on a run through slightly less salubrious areas.
I concur with those who say that the lighting on the Voyagers is good.

The original LO units are horribly dingy, but the new ones are quite classy, similar to the 345.

 

[BRX]

Can't say I find the LO trains dingy. But could accept that others might.

The stock that I do find dingy, and always have, is the Piccadilly Line tube trains.

 

[Parallel]

The worst example for poor lighting was when GWR operated class 150/1s and swapped out the fluorescent tubes with cold white LED tubes that somehow made the lighting dingy but with a huge amount of glare. Seems Northern have kept this.

I’m not that sensitive to lighting on board trains but I think lighting fitted with a diffuser is a lot kinder on the eye.

With regards to differing colour temperatures of bulbs, sometimes it is down to the bulbs themselves and sometimes it’s because particular lighting diffusers/plastic casings get discoloured over time. This is quite common with older high pressure sodium streetlights - often the bowls of the higher wattage variants get cooked to a crisp!

 

[BRX]

Also colour temperature is not the only factor - there's also colour rendering index, a measure of how evenly they light things across the spectrum. A light with a low CRI can give an odd atmosphere or strange colour cast.

Old sodium streetlights (the orangey ones) are an extreme example of this.

 

[Pigeon]

A lot of people don't also seem to understand the importance or care for colour temperature (Kelvins)and pick horrifically cold LED lightbulbs for usage at home, it is pretty obvious when I walk home and see people's living rooms lit in a very harsh cold light.

I have noticed the same thing, but I suspect they mostly do care but can't muster the mental effort to understand or alleviate the problem. I find it takes close attention to the small print, plus some degree of "sixth sense" for identifying and compensating for accidental inaccuracy or deliberate mendacity in manufacturers' descriptions, and if there is a picture of the thing working also some understanding of the deficiencies of photographic colour reproduction processes, to attain some reasonable degree of confidence that I am actually buying what I want; and even so the only truly definite knowledge is that gained when you put juice through it. (This is part of the reason I make my own LED bulbs: buying a batch of naked LEDs which turn out to be wrong wastes a lot less money than buying an equivalent number of incorrect complete assemblies.)

I think the correlation between rail enthusiasm and the ability to coherently analyse and articulate one's dissatisfaction with lighting quality does not so much reflect whether or not someone cares, as whether or not they are happy to nerd on about it and pay scrupulous attention to lots of arcane details when making an everyday purchase of a commonplace item.

I have encountered plenty of people with no affinity either for railways or for nerdery who nevertheless moan like billy-o about the disappearance of incandescent bulbs, and do things like laying in a massive stockpile while they still can or ferreting out suppliers of bulbs for "industrial" purposes which the regulations still allow. When I suggest that it would be better to simply pay enough attention to what they are buying to choose LED bulbs which are not horrible, they react with dismissive scorn and refuse to give the idea the slightest consideration.

Before that it was CFLs taking a long time to attain full brightness (so find which models do and don't do that and pick the ones which don't) and before that it was full-size fluorescents being cold and flickery (so pick tubes with a warm and long-persistence phosphor mix). Same reaction in both cases: scornful dismissal to the point of denying that the versions without those defects even existed.

People certainly do care; it's just that the non-nerdy majority would rather follow the brute-force approach of hunting down incandescent bulbs because they're all the same and you know what you're getting without having to think about it, instead of figuring out how to find out what you're getting with the alternatives.

I also believe it's pretty well scientifically established that most people in general do prefer warm-coloured lighting, even if a few don't. Which makes sense, since there's a powerful influence from the relation between the colour temperature of daylight and the weather. It's only natural that people should mostly prefer lighting which more closely resembles nice weather.

So I do think that lighting quality on trains is relevant to the general public - ditto other so-called "minor" factors under the general heading of "thoughtfulness" which affect how welcoming or oppressive it feels to travel on the railway, such as flickering displays in the corner of your eye or seats not lining up with windows. And we know it's not just nerds who object to constant barrages of announcements. I don't think it's appropriate to dismiss such concerns simply because people on here can happily go into detail about them rather than lumping them all together into a general feeling that trains are kind of yuck.