Lied to by conductor - please help!

[seedlessgrape]

Hi everyone.

I'm a student who was on a Birmingham to Cardiff train a few weeks ago to see my girlfriend. It was the first time I'd forgotten my young persons railcard. When the conductor came around, I realised this and he said I'd have to pay the excess. I was obviously not 100% happy but realised it was just his job nevertheless and so gave him my debit card.

Now here's where it gets interesting. He said to me "Oh, you get a refund of the amount I charge you - just go to any station with the receipt and show them your railcard. They'll refund you in full!". It took me about an hour to pay as his wireless unit went down (?) and I was then told to wait whilst he took my card into another cabin. He came back and said he needed to call the bank to authorise. So I let him go with my card for another 30 mins (trusted his uniform). I then had to sign something when he gave me my receipt and asked again "So, this is what I show to the person at the station?" and he said "Yeah, then they'll give you a full refund for the excess" he then moved on.

Well, I tried to get my refund at both Birmingham and Cardiff stations... both told me I wasn't entitled to it and that the conductor had told me a load of bull**** to get me to pay. Obviously I'm fuming right now. I'm a student, I was offering to pay anyway - so why feed me such a lie? Now I'm also worrying about my card details. If he lied to me about something like that, he could've easily have written down my card details. I really didn't expect such treatment from the rail service.

Can anyone offer and advice or tell me where I can complain? I really don't want him to get away with this, I also want my £15 back. I'm not sure what company/body employs the conductors? I know the following details:

Friday, 25 September 2009 *Birmingham Stations 20:30 to Cardiff Central

Conductor name was Paul.

Please help.

 

[90019]

If you're worried about you card details, speak to your bank about it ASAP.

 

[yorkie]

That should be enough information to give to Cross Country for them to identify the guard. Send them a letter explaining all of this. If you have no luck with Cross Country, contact Passenger Focus.

If you are worried about your bank card details, contact your bank and get a new card. I don't think anyone should be taking bank cards away from the customer.

How much did you get charged? £15? what ticket did you have? what ticket/excess did you get issued?

If you were only charged £15 then I think you were undercharged (because the railway has very harsh rules when you forget your railcard) and have no chance of getting your money back.

It is unacceptable that you were lied to, but I do think you could have been asked for a lot more money under the (unfair) rules.

 

[Isonstine]

If you wish to make a formal complaint against that member of staff then you are best to get in touch with CrossCountry Customer Relations.

In addition to this, although you cannot obtain a cash refund - CrossCountry will give you the difference back in travel vouchers for the extra you had to pay. Just send a copy of your railcard along with both sets of tickets when you write in.

 

[nedchester]

That should be enough information to give to Cross Country for them to identify the guard. Send them a letter explaining all of this. If you have no luck with Cross Country, contact Passenger Focus.

If you are worried about your bank card details, contact your bank and get a new card. I don't think anyone should be taking bank cards away from the customer.

How much did you get charged? £15? what ticket did you have? what ticket/excess did you get issued?

If you were only charged £15 then I think you were undercharged (because the railway has very harsh rules when you forget your railcard) and have no chance of getting your money back.

It is unacceptable that you were lied to, but I do think you could have been asked for a lot more money under the (unfair) rules.

Headcode is 1V16 but not sure why that is more helpful???

 

[LondonLarry]

As 90019 has said, get your bank to cancel the card and re-issue a new one. It shouldn't take too long for one to come through.

As for making a complaint about the member of staff's conduct, you need to contact CrossCountry:

customer.relations@crosscountrytrains.co.uk

Customer Relations Manager
CrossCountry
Cannon House
18 Priory Queensway
Birmingham
B4 6BS

You're unlikely to get your £15 back as your railcard T&Cs state that you should carry the railcard with you. Under the terms of the railcard, the guard should treat you as holding no ticket at all and sell you the full single fare at £39.00.

 

[GB]

Never ever let someone take your card out of your sight! It may well be innocent but it may not. Id speak to your back if I were you and get a replacement.

As for the lying, I don't know anything about ticketing issues but your best bet is to write to the TOC concerned (letter, not email) and try and give as much information about the issue, the service you were on, date and time of day etc etc.

 

[yorkie]

In addition to this, although you cannot obtain a cash refund - CrossCountry will give you the difference back in travel vouchers for the extra you had to pay. Just send a copy of your railcard along with both sets of tickets when you write in.

Are you sure? I thought that you couldn't do this?

 

[LondonLarry]

Are you sure? I thought that you couldn't do this?

XC would only give a refund back as a goodwill gesture. I reckon all the OP will receive is an apology and the complaint fowarded to the guard's manager.

 

[Greenback]

There should be no refund for having to pay as a reslt of forgetting to carry the railcard. The Op will probably get something for the fact that the conductor did not behave correctly. No one should take yo0ur card away even for a minute or two, it is unacceptable at all for the card to be removed for half an hour. I can't understand what the conductor was playing at...

 

[seedlessgrape]

Thanks for the responses.

I'll contact the company with this information and update on anything I get back.

I even asked him "How do I know you're not going to take my card details?" he then said "ha, you're really quite cynical aren't you?". Obviously I had good reason to be.

 

[LondonLarry]

Thanks for the responses.

I'll contact the company with this information and update on anything I get back.

I even asked him "How do I know you're not going to take my card details?" he then said "ha, you're really quite cynical aren't you?". Obviously I had good reason to be.

Just had another read of your original post, as far as I'm aware, the ticket machines used don't connect for online authorisation. As long as your PIN is accepted, that should be OK. The request for payment won't be sent to the bank untill the machine is plugged in for its overnight data transfer.

As for the guard taking your card away, if he needed to seek authorisation over the phone, I would prefer he took the card to somewhere quiter than read out the full number for the whole carriage to hear!

 

[Greenback]

Just had another read of your original post, as far as I'm aware, the ticket machines used don't connect for online authorisation. As long as your PIN is accepted, that should be OK. The request for payment won't be sent to the bank untill the machine is plugged in for its overnight data transfer.

As for the guard taking your card away, if he needed to seek authorisation over the phone, I would prefer he took the card to somewhere quiter than read out the full number for the whole carriage to hear!

I don't know why the conductor would need to phone the bank for authorisation, I've never seen this happen on any journey I've ever made, and I've seen lots of people paying on board by card.

If he/she did need to do it, they should obviously explain what they are doing and invite the customer to go with them. Moderrn advice, at least from my card issuer is not to let the card out of my sight at all. You only have to watch the Real Hustle to see how easy it is to read the details and clone a crad, leading to an empty account!

 

[Ferret]

Well, to authorise a credit/debit card, you don't actually need to read anything out at all. It's all doable by using the keypad on your mobile phone!!! Very odd!!!

 

[mumrar]

I don't know why the conductor would need to phone the bank for authorisation, I've never seen this happen on any journey I've ever made, and I've seen lots of people paying on board by card.

I've been a guard for 12 years, and have needed to do so when requested by the machine about 6 times. Whether or not your were on any of those trains to see it, bears no relevance to if it is required or not.

invite the customer to go with them

Customers and some employees are not permitted to enter train cabs. What you're asking is, because you're nervous about YOUR card details, which are required because YOU forgot YOUR railcard and have to pay, the guard should risk THEIR job for your own piece of mind? Not very fair. With the exception of the comment about refunds (which you've taken to label a lie, meaning intentional, rather than a mistake) I would have dealt with this in exactly the same manner, with the exception of charging you the full replacement cost. You may not like the conditions, but you signed to say you were in agreement with them. I don't like some rules of the road, but if I want to drive legally on them, I have to abide by all of them.

 

[clagmonster]

As has been said, under the conditions of the railcard the guard should have charged for a full single fare, in this case an open single at £39. You would then have been able to return your original ticket to wherever you bought it as unused, possibly due to an administration charge of at most £10. This is a right given by the conditions of carriage.
I assume that your original ticket was a saver return with railcard discount, priced at £29.20. In that case, what the guard charged you was an excess fare between the price of the discounted fare and the undiscounted fare.
If you are concerned about your debit card, and I would be in the circumstances, I would advise you to go to your bank, cancel the card and order the new one. I would also advise you to check your statement carefullly.
As for cards not working in the guards machines, my card has never worked in one. One guard has told me that the machines don't like a certain type of card. In most cases, guards have got round this by going to the old fashioned method of swiping the guard and asking me to sign the receipt. I must be unlucky on this, because my card was recently replaced, and I still have the same problem.

 

[Greenback]

I've been a guard for 12 years, and have needed to do so when requested by the machine about 6 times. Whether or not your were on any of those trains to see it, bears no relevance to if it is required or not.

Customers and some employees are not permitted to enter train cabs. What you're asking is, because you're nervous about YOUR card details, which are required because YOU forgot YOUR railcard and have to pay, the guard should risk THEIR job for your own piece of mind? Not very fair. With the exception of the comment about refunds (which you've taken to label a lie, meaning intentional, rather than a mistake) I would have dealt with this in exactly the same manner, with the exception of charging you the full replacement cost. You may not like the conditions, but you signed to say you were in agreement with them. I don't like some rules of the road, but if I want to drive legally on them, I have to abide by all of them.

I am not at all sure why you have quoted some of what i peviously said and then gone on to use 'you' and yours' which seemks to me to imply that i was the original OP!

Let's go through the points one by one. Firstly, the fact that it has been necessary six times in twelve years shows that what I have said is correct, ie I have never seen it happen, it happens on average to a guard every two years, so it much be pretty rare right?

Secondly, why does the conductor have to go top their cab to get the authorisation? Why can't it be done in front of the passenger? What I am saying is it may be preferable in some circumstances to go to a quieter part of the train.

Thirdly, in these circumstances, the OP was at fault for not having their railcard. I have said they should not get a refund of the £15 paid. What I dispute is that the card was taken from them for an extended period. This is not good customer service or practie in this day and age for reasons already pointed out. It is in fact irrelevant in that the Op could have needed to buy on board and have te same thing happen.

Fourthly (and finally!) the OP labelled what the guard said as a lie because they were told they would get a refund. This is incorrect. Whether it's a lie or not I can't say. I have concerned myself thus far only with the card issue. If it's a genuine mistake, then obviously the training needs to be improved.

 

[Ferret]

Well, I've already addressed the point about needing to go to the back cab with a card. Swipe details into Avantix, then walk outside to vestibule where mobile signal is better and key in details when the automated system prompts you to! Simples!!! Due to unreliability of Chip & Pin machines I've had to go through that rigmarole far too many times!!! I reckon I've done that upwards of 30 times this year!!!!

 

[mumrar]

I'm fully aware that you are not the OP, but it's funny how the OP is saying the guards incorrect info is a lie. Saying something untrue and saying a lie are very different things, but maybe in their capacity as a student the OP is sadly not enrolled in English. A lie implies it was a deliberate attempt to mislead. How would the OP like it if the guard assumed the lack of railcard was a sign of a deliberate attempt to defraud? I quoted what you said about authorisation because whether it's rare or not, I believed you were implying that because you hadn't seen it happen on so many journeys, why did it need to happen at all? I believe a lot of clearing houses now use automated systems as mentioned by Ferret, but previously it was conducted verbally over the phone, so the cab was used for privacy. A good thing being as you state how you've never seen authorisation while paying attention to other peoples card transactions you have no involvement with on a train (this is meant in humour of course).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It was the first time I'd forgotten my young persons railcard.

So? If it's the first time you ever exceed the speed limit past a speed camera, you'll still get a fine and points.

I tried to get my refund at both Birmingham and Cardiff stations, both told me I wasn't entitled to it and that the conductor had told me a load of bull**** to get me to pay

Is that the exact quote given at these two stations?

I was offering to pay anyway - so why feed me such a lie?

What proof do you have that it was a deliberate attempt to mislead?

I really don't want him to get away with this, I also want my £15 back.

You aren't entitled to the money back, which was less than it could have been. He's not charged you the full amount, and incorrectly advised you to try to reclaim what monies you had been charged. What don't you want him to get away with exactly?

 

[Greenback]

I quoted what you said about authorisation because whether it's rare or not, I believed you were implying that because you hadn't seen it happen on so many journeys, why did it need to happen at all? I believe a lot of clearing houses now use automated systems as mentioned by Ferret, but previously it was conducted verbally over the phone, so the cab was used for privacy. A good thing being as you state how you've never seen authorisation while paying attention to other peoples card transactions you have no involvement with on a train (this is meant in humour of course).

Fair enough Mumrar, I think we agree that the OP shouldn't get a refund. I am concerend about the card being taken though. My partner has little interest in railways and said she would never let anyone take the card out of her sight and I imagine there are a lot of people like us. Personally I would not let anyone take one of my cards away, I look back at waiters taking my card off me in restaurants years ago, and reappearing ten minutes later, and think there's no way I'd let it happen now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I quoted what you said about authorisation because whether it's rare or not, I believed you were implying that because you hadn't seen it happen on so many journeys, why did it need to happen at all? I believe a lot of clearing houses now use automated systems as mentioned by Ferret, but previously it was conducted verbally over the phone, so the cab was used for privacy. A good thing being as you state how you've never seen authorisation while paying attention to other peoples card transactions you have no involvement with on a train (this is meant in humour of course).

 

[Max]

To be honest mumar, I don't think there is any need to attack the OP so much. You might know the full T&Cs for the railcards, but many passengers probably don't even look at them. Passengers must rely on the information they are given by figures of authority, in this case, the train manager, and 'seedlessgrape' was clearly misled. No, the OP doesn't have the right to a refund. However, since they were so misled by the member of staff in question, and in light of the card fiasco, I wouldn't be surprised if XC offer some form of compensation as a gesture of goodwill.

Regarding the card, in the shop where I worked for nearly 18 months, we had a backup system for when the machine wouldn't work - the old fashioned card imprint. The purchases would then be manually processed over the phone through our bank at the end of the shift. I've noticed that Wessex and Shropshire (I believe it was) use this system in their buffet car. Why then couldn't TOC's provide these machines for times when the chip and pin device fails? It seems to be fairly well known that they are very unreliable.

 

[jon0844]

I accept that people don't read T&Cs (how many people read them online when having to tick a box to accept them - especially if failing to agree means not being able to continue?) but that is still no excuse.

I may not know something, but when 'caught' and informed - I can't complain if the rule was in the T&Cs I simply chose not to bother to read. Nor should I be able to go moaning to the press because of my own stupidity (and I've been caught out by small print before, when younger).

There are certain unfair conditions that can be argued in court and dismissed, but having your card with you at all times that you're using a discounted ticket that relies on that card is pretty obvious.

If you forget the railcard, you must buy a ticket as someone without said railcard (by all means then claim back the difference later as many TOCs would do so as a gesture of goodwill - especially if there's no previous record against that railcard).

As for the card being taken away - that is a problem because the rules that I have read from my bank say I should never let the card out of my possession. That also means that I should tell Tesco and other retailers to sod off when they want to take my card to swipe through the till - I keep the card and I insert or swipe as necessary.

But, that said, it the guard needed to phone up for manual authorisation then I'm sure the OP doesn't want their card details being read out to the whole train (and have someone writing/recording the data down) so privacy surely makes sense? Perhaps the OP should have gone with the person?

And if someone does run the card through a skimmer or write the details down, there's a good chance it will become quite obvious who is guilty once a second card is used. So, is the guard/conductor/RPI going to do just this one card or many? By all means cancel the card, but I doubt very much that anything bad will happen.

 

[amn140174]

I think the best thing to do when you purchase tickets with a rail card is to place the tickets straight into the rail card wallet, then all tickets and rail card are together.

 

[Mojo]

I think the best thing to do when you purchase tickets with a rail card is to place the tickets straight into the rail card wallet, then all tickets and rail card are together.

Yes, I've never understood how people can "forget" their Railcard. Although I don't have one, I keep all my travel documents in one place, a ticket wallet free from all ticket offices.

 

[amn140174]

It has always been thought by me that conductors are trustworthy, I would like to think he just did what his duty was with the card and that was it. But in this day and age with personal debt ect how many times do we see police officers, MPs ect up to dodgy activities. Best bet is to just cancel the card.

Talking of dodgy activities though many years ago I was travelling from an unstaffed station without a ticket machine and had no choice but to get a ticket onboard the train.
The conductor approached and I asked for a single to my destination knowing that the fare was £16.70 this is what I had in my hand. To my surprise the conductor said he did not have any tickets left to issue and gave me £6.70 back. At the time I thought that was strange. Then I noticed the conductor issue a ticket to a girl further up the train. Thinking to myself he's fiddling I asked the girl where she was going and my thoughts were correct she was changing trains so would need to show a ticket on her next train. Being a fat cat shareholder I thought to myself he's not taking my lovely dividend, I then made a call to a director in my company who then made a call to a director of the TOC I was travelling on, I received a call back asking what coach and seat number I was in and telling me that two managers would board the train and would I make a statement out for them there and then as they had suspicions about this person. In this statement I mentioned the girl was issued with a ticket and that’s what raised my suspicion more, one of the managers issued the girl with another ticket and took her ticket for inspection against the conductors ticket book to find that the copy in the ticket book was for a small amount compared to the amount she had paid that was on her ticket. What he was doing was putting a sheet of plastic between the ticket and the carbon copy so the ticket he was issuing would not copy onto the carbon copy in his book. He was then entering smaller amount tickets onto the copy in his book than he had issued. Was later told that an estimate for the court case was going to be £25,000 minimum. As fare as I know this never went to court and was settled behind closed doors, was told at the time they didn’t want the ticket book fiddle being brought out into the open.

 

[seedlessgrape]

So? If it's the first time you ever exceed the speed limit past a speed camera, you'll still get a fine and points.

I stated it was my first time to indicate that I was unaware of the protocol involved.

Is that the exact quote given at these two stations?

I'm afraid I don't see the relevance? Yes though. For arguments sake the Information Desk at Birmingham New Street said that he's told me "a load of bull****".

The ticket sales desk (who I went to afterwards) then told me that it's something conductors say to get you to pay your ticket and gave me a complaint form (but it seems to be a Delay Repay Scheme, which isn't of much use).

What proof do you have that it was a deliberate attempt to mislead?

I did think that he may have actually thought he was telling the truth but he told me he had been a ticket inspector for 2 years. How could a ticket inspector of 2 years be unaware of such a thing? Maybe it wasn't deliberate or a lie, maybe it was just extremely negligent, either way... I don't think it should happen.

 

[yorkie]

The guard was definitely not doing it by the book - if he had, he'd have charged you 39 pounds (or 32 if you asked to split at Cheltenham - but he is not obliged to offer you the split!). I'd almost be tempted not to report anything - after all it does seem strange to report being undercharged for something! - but I can't deny that, as he acted incorrectly with what he charged and said incorrect things, that maybe other mistakes were made and maybe it should be reported. Ultimately though, it's your decision.

 

[37401]

if your that worried about poeple using your card then simply dont take it with you and take out cash from the cashpoint, or remember your Y-P

 

[90019]

if your that worried about poeple using your card then simply dont take it with you and take out cash from the cashpoint

Then what do you do if you run out of money because you have to pay for something you didn't expect to?

 

[37401]

Then what do you do if you run out of money because you have to pay for something you didn't expect to?

your screwed then just learn that not everyone wants to steal your card.

as said, you were charged £15, you got a bargin so why are you moaning when you forgot your railcard, I dont think the guard knowingly mislead you.

I once forgot my Y-P when I did a WMDR, I just payed up the full fare and got on with my day, my fault I suffer paying the extra £6+