• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Lickey Incline Anecdotes

Status
Not open for further replies.

D1537

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
2,046
Location
North Yorkshire
Hi everyone,

A very pleasant couple of hours was spent with an ex Saltley driver (over a few beers in a pub) a few months a go.

Two anecdotes really stood out and I'm curious to know what others think.

1. Heading back down the Lickey in a 'banker' (in this case a Pannier tank) as a fireman. By all accounts moving at a rare old pace; the young fireman hanging on for dear life whilst the driver looked as cool as custard.

2. In later years as a driver at the controls of a Peak as it reached 100 mph at the bottom of the Lickey.

Your thoughts would be very much appreciated.

Thanks for reading this.

On two occasions I was on a train where the bankers worked through to New Street or further due to failures, both in 1985. First one was 47628 on a daytime inter-regional - it was just out of works in the GW150 green. Gave up on the bank and 37222+37224 came to the rescue and pushed all the way to New Street. Later on that year on the overnight Penzance-Leeds with a 45/1, driver stopped at Bromsgrove and declared a failure. 37189+37220 were attached to the front and worked to New St ... at which point control decided they didn't have anything spare and the 37s should continue! All three locos were removed at Derby for a 47/4.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

EveningStar

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2016
Messages
271
Location
Deepest, darkest Northumberland
45s have 5 stage of field weakening generally meaning their power output is more consistent so likely to be better hill climbers (maybe someone who drove them could verify/disprove?), very little to choose between the two with regards to Rail Horse Power (about 80hp, I think), which probably meant a 45 in good condition may well perform better than a 47 in average condition.
As an anecdote do remember having 47281 dragging 47664 being banked by 37215 - think it was 31st July 1988. 47664 sat down in Cheltenham station and 47281 was sent from Gloucester (assume wrong line as ran through Cheltenham wrong line and don't think there were any crossovers between Cheltenham and Gloucester by then).

Lived in Bromsgrove from 1974 until going to university in 1981, so have a wealth of Lickey Incline memories of that era.

From the trackside at Vigo, about a half mile below the summit, I do not recall there being any noticeable difference in speed between 45/6s and 47s by the time the momentum of rushing through Bromsgrove was lost and they were climbing on full power. For freight trains, the banker crews would claim there was a more noticeable difference between a Saltley driver, who would sit back and let the bankers do all the work, and other drivers, who would make an effort!

By the 1970s the only passenger trains regularly banked would be the sleeper, except on a Friday when it would run in two portions each capable of unassisted ascent, and a midday train regularly rostered for a class 31. The sleeper needed care with handling after an incident when the bankers buffered up a little bit incautiously and a Sir somebody or other wrote letter of complaint about being thrown from his bunk.

From the perspective of control, it must have been useful to have two class 37s stationed in the middle of nowhere ready to assist an ailing train. For the banker crews, it was a chance to keep their route card up to date plus top up the tanks at Saltley or Gloucester. There were other benefits, such as the time I was home from university for a weekend, get to New Street and find the bankers being unhooked from a rescued train, so popped over to say hello to the crew and get a lift bank to Bromsgrove via Camp Hill rather than taking the 144 bus.

Attached taken, safely behind the stile, at Vigo in 1978. Still remember the deep resonant hum of a Peak at full bark.
1978A039 08071978.jpg
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
18,903
Location
Devon
Lived in Bromsgrove from 1974 until going to university in 1981, so have a wealth of Lickey Incline memories of that era.

From the trackside at Vigo, about a half mile below the summit, I do not recall there being any noticeable difference in speed between 45/6s and 47s by the time the momentum of rushing through Bromsgrove was lost and they were climbing on full power. For freight trains, the banker crews would claim there was a more noticeable difference between a Saltley driver, who would sit back and let the bankers do all the work, and other drivers, who would make an effort!

By the 1970s the only passenger trains regularly banked would be the sleeper, except on a Friday when it would run in two portions each capable of unassisted ascent, and a midday train regularly rostered for a class 31. The sleeper needed care with handling after an incident when the bankers buffered up a little bit incautiously and a Sir somebody or other wrote letter of complaint about being thrown from his bunk.

From the perspective of control, it must have been useful to have two class 37s stationed in the middle of nowhere ready to assist an ailing train. For the banker crews, it was a chance to keep their route card up to date plus top up the tanks at Saltley or Gloucester. There were other benefits, such as the time I was home from university for a weekend, get to New Street and find the bankers being unhooked from a rescued train, so popped over to say hello to the crew and get a lift bank to Bromsgrove via Camp Hill rather than taking the 144 bus.

Attached taken, safely behind the stile, at Vigo in 1978. Still remember the deep resonant hum of a Peak at full bark.
View attachment 68797
Lovely stuff!
 

markindurham

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2011
Messages
390
There's a description in one of the excellent "Midland Record" books of a very impressive climb of the bank by (4)5699 "Galatea". Sadly she'll never be allowed to recreate such a feat, but at least she's still around. Does anyone know if she's actually climbed the bank since her return from the dead?
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
4,068
45s have 5 stage of field weakening generally meaning their power output is more consistent so likely to be better hill climbers (maybe someone who drove them could verify/disprove?), very little to choose between the two with regards to Rail Horse Power (about 80hp, I think), which probably meant a 45 in good condition may well perform better than a 47 in average condition. .

5 stages of field weakening? Surely three - cutting in at around 32 mph and 65 mph, IIRC?

It's true IMX that crews preferred Cl 45s to 46s - at least on the Midland - considering the 45s more robust. Presumably BRB agreed, which is why the 45s outlasted the 46s, despite the latter being, on average a year or two younger than the 45s.

But I don't know if that would play out in terms of climbing power up the Lickey. My first guess is there would be more or less nothing to choose between the three classes, except that - given the tougher electrics of the 45s, perhaps they could sustain longer periods "in the yellow" on the ammeters without flashovers, so indeed, they could get greater power at the wheel rim in practice? That is, if they could avoid wheelslip.
 

Brush 4

Member
Joined
25 Nov 2018
Messages
716
Most banking everywhere was uncoupled, even in diesel days. Recent steam specials up Lickey have had uncoupled bankers. 57XX mostly, singly or in pairs. Only 45690 Leander has been up the Lickey in preservation AFAIK. An ex Bristol Barrow Rd loco so, home territory.
Archive and modern scenes in this link.
Try the 7th down for the Jubilee roar, on 6 unassisted.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lickey+incline+steam
 

Richard Scott

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Railtours & Preservation
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
4,577
5 stages of field weakening? Surely three - cutting in at around 32 mph and 65 mph, IIRC?

It's true IMX that crews preferred Cl 45s to 46s - at least on the Midland - considering the 45s more robust. Presumably BRB agreed, which is why the 45s outlasted the 46s, despite the latter being, on average a year or two younger than the 45s.

But I don't know if that would play out in terms of climbing power up the Lickey. My first guess is there would be more or less nothing to choose between the three classes, except that - given the tougher electrics of the 45s, perhaps they could sustain longer periods "in the yellow" on the ammeters without flashovers, so indeed, they could get greater power at the wheel rim in practice? That is, if they could avoid wheelslip.
45s definitely have 5 stages of weakening - 45149 definitely did last time I looked in the cubicle! Last one comes in at 62mph then there is a voltage raise system to increase excitation on the main generator coming in at around 75mph, I believe, to attain the higher road speed.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,640
Location
Nottingham
Most banking everywhere was uncoupled, even in diesel days. Recent steam specials up Lickey have had uncoupled bankers. 57XX mostly, singly or in pairs. Only 45690 Leander has been up the Lickey in preservation AFAIK. An ex Bristol Barrow Rd loco so, home territory.
Archive and modern scenes in this link.
Try the 7th down for the Jubilee roar, on 6 unassisted.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lickey+incline+steam
A couple of class 66s have been fitted for banking of the buckeye-fitted wagons on the Lickey, which can't be pushed without coupling. There's a special pull cord for the driver to uncouple in motion.
 

R Scandle

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2019
Messages
31
45s are very similar in power (around 2500 hp) to a 47, I’m not sure if the 5mph difference in top speed would have helped with hill climbing? Maybe someone would know?
Yes it was an 86 (I’d have to look up which one though) from New Street and we were on the Edinburgh portion, which was powered by 47535 University of Leicester from Carstairs.
Five locos involved with one train. Not bad really...

I'll see your 5 on 1S19 and raise you....!
12/03/83 1S19 2124 Temple Meads to Glasgow Central:
45146 Temple Meads to New Street (via Worcester SH where 37279 was attached then via Kidderminster)
47484 New Street to Crewe (Via Cannock)
81006 Crewe to Preston
47199 Preston to Carlisle (Via the S&C)
85031 Carlisle to Glasgow

So that's 6 to Glasgow and a seventh if you were on the Edinburgh portion.

And 1S19 again on 30/04/83:
45145 Temple Meads to New Street
37276 Lickey Banker
86004 New Street to Preston
40057 Preston to Carlisle (via the S&C)
81006 Carlisle to Carstairs (where it failed)
37028 (+81006) Carstairs to Glasgow
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
18,903
Location
Devon
I'll see your 5 on 1S19 and raise you....!
12/03/83 1S19 2124 Temple Meads to Glasgow Central:
45146 Temple Meads to New Street (via Worcester SH where 37279 was attached then via Kidderminster)
47484 New Street to Crewe (Via Cannock)
81006 Crewe to Preston
47199 Preston to Carlisle (Via the S&C)
85031 Carlisle to Glasgow

So that's 6 to Glasgow and a seventh if you were on the Edinburgh portion.

And 1S19 again on 30/04/83:
45145 Temple Meads to New Street
37276 Lickey Banker
86004 New Street to Preston
40057 Preston to Carlisle (via the S&C)
81006 Carlisle to Carstairs (where it failed)
37028 (+81006) Carstairs to Glasgow
If someone ever does invent a time machine I’d swap mine for either of those I reckon.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
7,334
I am absolutely certain that (at one time in the mid-1970's at least) the only banked passenger train up the Lickey was the Edinburgh portion of the summer Friday night Bristol-Scotland sleeper.
The reason I am sure is because I and a friend worked on Temple Meads station at the time, and in the summer the two northbound portions of the overnight sleeper & seats train ran independently throughout. We set off on the Edinburgh portion because that was the only train that was banked, and I remember being alone at the back of the seated portion of the almost empty train with the droplight window open as the banker buffered up, a class 47 I think. I think the banker driver pushed a "ready" plunger and the train loco driver must have acknowledged in some way, because we immediately had both locos working flat out up the bank. It's not often you can be so close to a loco working flat out at a moderate speed...

Another memory is of coming home to Bristol one Saturday or Sunday night after an exploring trip to "the north" with the same friend. Disruption meant we had missed our last train home but, wandering round New St station, I recognised a young Secondman from my spell in Bath Road depot. I explained our problem and he said he would check with his driver, but thought we would be OK for a lift home on his class 3 parcels train! We stuck with him and then got in the back cab (a 47 again, I think) and set off into the night. It is quite magical, being in a dark cab with a view of the countryside by star- or moon-light.
Half-way down the Lickey at full speed the brakes were slammed on and we had a fountain of fire (brake-block sparks) streaming past the rear cab window to the bottom of the bank! I understood then how heavy braking on fuel-soaked dirt could start fires under diesel locos. When we got to Temple Meads our rescuer asked if we heard the detonators... we hadn't, but he said that a facing point lock was faulty at the foot of the bank and they hadn't known of the consequent speed restriction!
 

axlecounter

Member
Joined
23 Feb 2016
Messages
403
Location
Switzerland
A couple of class 66s have been fitted for banking of the buckeye-fitted wagons on the Lickey, which can't be pushed without coupling. There's a special pull cord for the driver to uncouple in motion.

You mean, it’s done even today? Same thing with a banker uncoupled by a pull cord was done in Italy years ago, now forbidden.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,640
Location
Nottingham
You mean, it’s done even today? Same thing with a banker uncoupled by a pull cord was done in Italy years ago, now forbidden.
I think it still happens occasionally - I reviewed the instructions about 10 years ago.
I think the banker driver pushed a "ready" plunger and the train loco driver must have acknowledged in some way, because we immediately had both locos working flat out up the bank. It's not often you can be so close to a loco working flat out at a moderate speed...
The review I mentioned above was prior to the re-signalling and there was indeed such a plunger. I read, possibly somewhere on this forum, that the plunger was taken out during re-signalling as the drivers would now be in communication by radio - reading this is one reason I believe it still happens.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
4,068
45s definitely have 5 stages of weakening - 45149 definitely did last time I looked in the cubicle! Last one comes in at 62mph then there is a voltage raise system to increase excitation on the main generator coming in at around 75mph, I believe, to attain the higher road speed.
Are we talking about field weakening of the traction motors? I could have sworn it was just three stages ( ie diverts cut in twice).
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2019
Messages
466
Location
Alton, Hants
A couple of class 66s have been fitted for banking of the buckeye-fitted wagons on the Lickey, which can't be pushed without coupling. There's a special pull cord for the driver to uncouple in motion.

To paraphrase the DB Supplementary Operating Instructions:
To permit banking assistance on the Lickey Incline 66055 to 66059 have autocoupler and in cab mods. Externally, an air cylinder to operate the uncoupling arm, and a light so that the driver can see what he's about. Internally switches for the uncoupler and light (and a master switch).
(Amazing the stuff that one keeps after retiring!)
Pat
 

EveningStar

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2016
Messages
271
Location
Deepest, darkest Northumberland
I am absolutely certain that (at one time in the mid-1970's at least) the only banked passenger train up the Lickey was the Edinburgh portion of the summer Friday night Bristol-Scotland sleeper.
The reason I am sure is because I and a friend worked on Temple Meads station at the time, and in the summer the two northbound portions of the overnight sleeper & seats train ran independently throughout. We set off on the Edinburgh portion because that was the only train that was banked, and I remember being alone at the back of the seated portion of the almost empty train with the droplight window open as the banker buffered up, a class 47 I think. I think the banker driver pushed a "ready" plunger and the train loco driver must have acknowledged in some way, because we immediately had both locos working flat out up the bank. It's not often you can be so close to a loco working flat out at a moderate speed...

At that time, the Edinburgh/Glasgow sleeper was the only train requiring a banker. However, on Friday's it ran in two portions, neither of which normally required a banker, so getting banked on a Friday was anomalous and I guessing the evening you travelled it was either above the normally permitted load or your train engine was not in the best of health.

The class 47 was what we, the spotters on Garrington's Bridge by the banker mess-room, used to refer to as the 'Worcester banker'. This was a single shift turn from Worcester that supplemented the two class 37's, arriving at Bromsgrove about 2000. It would seem that Worcester would pull whatever arrived on a teatime working from Paddington and send it to Bromsgrove for a night out (about the best night out one could get in Bromsgrove, let me tell you!). Normally this a slightly rarer than the normal range of Western Region class 47's, although for a special treat we would get a class 50, so those spotters still young enough to have a parentally enforced curfew would contrive to ensure the curfew stretched to just after the scheduled arrival of the Worcester banker as there was no knowing what we could be getting. Less popular would be when a class 37 turned up, although at shift end the Bromsgrove crew had a beauty contest amongst the three class 37's on site and the weakest one got sent back to South Wales. Rumours abounded that Peaks and Westerns had appeared at various times as the Worcester banker, although I never saw such a thing.

Despatch of a banked train was by way of the plunger you observed and RA lights. On arrival at Bromsgrove, the train driver pressed a plunger notifying 'ready to start' to Gloucester Box. Meanwhile, the bankers would be following the train, signalled permissively, stopping by the nearest to the train rear of one of a sequence of trackside plungers. One of the crew would press the plunger (allegedly it was unwise to do this while still hanging onto the loco as it resulted in a mild electric shock) to signify bankers ready to start. The bankers then had 15 seconds to get into position ... gently does it with the sleeper ever since a crew were a bit rough one night and knocked that Sir Somebody out of bed. If they were going immediately, as the signal cleared this also cleared a RA repeater on a gantry visible to the banker crew.

Getting out of the Bromsgrove and onto the incline was tricker than it might first seem, particularly with a loose-coupled freight. The worst problem was from the loop where the train snaked right, then left and then the gentle right curve through the station, so the front part of the train might be on the incline while the rear part was being pushed through the reverse curves ... it is unwise to give a loose-coupled short wheelbase train too much of a squeeze or everything might, and indeed sometimes did, end up in a pile between St Godwald's and Finstall Road Bridges. And two class 37's pack quite a punch.

Of course, by the later 1970's and into the 1980's, the end was in sight for regular banking on the Lickey Incline and officialdom largely overlooked what was happening at Bromsgrove. With long gaps in banked trains during the day, I remember an incident where one of the drivers disappeared on an errand. Unfortunately, control decided to send a class 25 hauled special freight and routed it onto the main rather than loop, judging there was enough time to get it inside at Barnt Green before the following express. Anyway, the drivers assistant, a relatively new traction trainee, got the bankers into position, yet wisely decided not to go without the missing driver on board, so they just sat there. Eventually the express came into view and instead of a lovely 80mph run at the bank, was checked into the loop, through the speed restricted loop and carefully out of the loop and onto the incline before applying power. Do not imagine they had an easy ascent. Rumours abounded that the missing driver, who arrived soon after all the excitement, had a 'no tea' summons to explain himself, although he was phlegmatic man who doubtless took it with equanimity. Rumours also abounded concerning when the bankers suffered an earth fault exiting, or not as the case may be, the turn back loop at Blackwell one night. Blocking main lines with two derailed class 37's does tend to draw officialdom's attention, particularly where there is potential for contradictory accounts concerning what actually happened.
 

Richard Scott

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Railtours & Preservation
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
4,577
Are we talking about field weakening of the traction motors? I could have sworn it was just three stages ( ie diverts cut in twice).
Bit late replying to this one. Yes it is the field weakening and definitely 5 diverts on a 45 (and a 33, I believe).
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
18,903
Location
Devon
At that time, the Edinburgh/Glasgow sleeper was the only train requiring a banker. However, on Friday's it ran in two portions, neither of which normally required a banker, so getting banked on a Friday was anomalous and I guessing the evening you travelled it was either above the normally permitted load or your train engine was not in the best of health.

The class 47 was what we, the spotters on Garrington's Bridge by the banker mess-room, used to refer to as the 'Worcester banker'. This was a single shift turn from Worcester that supplemented the two class 37's, arriving at Bromsgrove about 2000. It would seem that Worcester would pull whatever arrived on a teatime working from Paddington and send it to Bromsgrove for a night out (about the best night out one could get in Bromsgrove, let me tell you!). Normally this a slightly rarer than the normal range of Western Region class 47's, although for a special treat we would get a class 50, so those spotters still young enough to have a parentally enforced curfew would contrive to ensure the curfew stretched to just after the scheduled arrival of the Worcester banker as there was no knowing what we could be getting. Less popular would be when a class 37 turned up, although at shift end the Bromsgrove crew had a beauty contest amongst the three class 37's on site and the weakest one got sent back to South Wales. Rumours abounded that Peaks and Westerns had appeared at various times as the Worcester banker, although I never saw such a thing.

Despatch of a banked train was by way of the plunger you observed and RA lights. On arrival at Bromsgrove, the train driver pressed a plunger notifying 'ready to start' to Gloucester Box. Meanwhile, the bankers would be following the train, signalled permissively, stopping by the nearest to the train rear of one of a sequence of trackside plungers. One of the crew would press the plunger (allegedly it was unwise to do this while still hanging onto the loco as it resulted in a mild electric shock) to signify bankers ready to start. The bankers then had 15 seconds to get into position ... gently does it with the sleeper ever since a crew were a bit rough one night and knocked that Sir Somebody out of bed. If they were going immediately, as the signal cleared this also cleared a RA repeater on a gantry visible to the banker crew.

Getting out of the Bromsgrove and onto the incline was tricker than it might first seem, particularly with a loose-coupled freight. The worst problem was from the loop where the train snaked right, then left and then the gentle right curve through the station, so the front part of the train might be on the incline while the rear part was being pushed through the reverse curves ... it is unwise to give a loose-coupled short wheelbase train too much of a squeeze or everything might, and indeed sometimes did, end up in a pile between St Godwald's and Finstall Road Bridges. And two class 37's pack quite a punch.

Of course, by the later 1970's and into the 1980's, the end was in sight for regular banking on the Lickey Incline and officialdom largely overlooked what was happening at Bromsgrove. With long gaps in banked trains during the day, I remember an incident where one of the drivers disappeared on an errand. Unfortunately, control decided to send a class 25 hauled special freight and routed it onto the main rather than loop, judging there was enough time to get it inside at Barnt Green before the following express. Anyway, the drivers assistant, a relatively new traction trainee, got the bankers into position, yet wisely decided not to go without the missing driver on board, so they just sat there. Eventually the express came into view and instead of a lovely 80mph run at the bank, was checked into the loop, through the speed restricted loop and carefully out of the loop and onto the incline before applying power. Do not imagine they had an easy ascent. Rumours abounded that the missing driver, who arrived soon after all the excitement, had a 'no tea' summons to explain himself, although he was phlegmatic man who doubtless took it with equanimity. Rumours also abounded concerning when the bankers suffered an earth fault exiting, or not as the case may be, the turn back loop at Blackwell one night. Blocking main lines with two derailed class 37's does tend to draw officialdom's attention, particularly where there is potential for contradictory accounts concerning what actually happened.
Great stuff. Thanks for posting this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top