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Lib Dems plan huge Rail Expansion

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Ivo

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Found this on the BBC's website...

Lib Dems plan rail expansion by cutting road projects

Electrification of the Cross Country Route, the Waverley Line, many ATOC proposals, and more; and less wasted on hard shoulders! Brilliant!

...Except that it would never happen, and not just because they won't get elected. They are taking the idea of sacrificing road improvements too far.

Any thoughts?
 
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WatcherZero

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I love it, question whether the manchester to Liverpool and Preston electrification is the already committed schemes, but otherwise Skem links been talked of for years and Southport to Preston only requires the reinstatement of one former curve.
 

wintonian

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I've been saying for ages let’s drastically cut the highways budget and rebuild these lines send a few volts up others and reduce fares.

The only way you will get a lot of people out of their cars is to stop building and maintaining roads (other than for safety of course) IMO.

Never thought I'd find someone agreeing with me on this.
 

PhilipW

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I like the plans too. I know that it is often easy to pour scorn on the Lib Dems beacuse they are unlikely to form the next government. True, but good ideas can come from all quarters. Anyone can argue about the detail of the proposals but I fully support the thrust of the proposals and hope that many of the ideas will come to fruition whoever wins the election.
 
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thefab444

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Norman Baker said:
High speed rail is hugely important, but it is only part of the 21st-century rail network Britain needs

Very well said, some people seem to think an HS line to Birmingham and Manchester will solve everything.
 

Metroland

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I see the RAC are complaining even though 96% of the surface transport network is roads.

As someone that doesn't have a car, I welcome the expansion.
 

boing_uk

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While I welcome the increased electrification, I would question whether the plans for re-opened lines is valid. Surely the budget would be better spent:

a) increasing LRT spending by expanding existing networks and implementing new ones
b) changing legislation to force utilities to bear the cost of diversion works to services rather than the LRT schemes... such as is done abroad.
c) making better use of existing road networks through small-scale network improvements - no new long distance roads.
d) making containerload freight possible to smaller principal locations on the rail network rather than regional destinations like DIRFT and Europort - DFMU's anyone?
e) making personal car hire much easier, for that section from the station to the premises.
 

Geezertronic

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Very well said, some people seem to think an HS line to Birmingham and Manchester will solve everything.

A HS line from London to Glasgow would solve a lot of long term capacity problems, the start of the line from London to Birmingham would be a big start.
 

ivanhoe

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A veritable wish list of schemes which many would never see the light of day even if our Public Finances were okay.
 
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What we all want is more services, yet the existing network is full so therefore you have to expand it to allow for things to take alternative routes even if the ultimate destination is the same.

It is all very well singing the praises of "High Speed" rail, but that costs even more than a normal line to design, build and run as it requires far more detailed operation including in cab signalling, which conventional lines don't, then there's the extra cost of rolling stock to go with it too.

There are plenty of old routes down here which could be used to take traffic off of the roads, including some relatively simple ones, such as redoubling the line from Castle Cary to Yeovil and Weymouth, it is strangled by the single line sections, a chord to/from the Castle Cary line to the Waterloo line (Bradford Abbas side & there used to be one!) and from the Waterloo line to Weymouth line would make journeys from Wiltshire/Devon to Dorset Coast a cinch. The A37 is a nightmare journey from Bristol to Weymouth, a journey that is going to be quite popular in the next 18 months, as will a journeys from the other parts of the West.

Another couple of lines that would be useful is are the ones from Kenilworth to Berkswell, ideal for diverting freight or passenger services away from Coventry & Rugby to Leamington Spa, yes it would need to be realigned at the Leamington end due to redevelopment, but again ideal for diverting freight or passenger services and freeing up capacity, recent events on both the East & West Coast mainlines would have shown how useful the Waverley line would have been.

It is only when you start looking a bit more carefully at putting some of the smaller lines back in do you get the "bigger picture" and find that you can actually increase capacity exponentially.

The railway is not all about making money, it never will make a profit, it will always require some kind of subsidy and all the time things like the RHA exist a select few government minions and their paymasters will always see to that, it's about opening the country up again, keeping car usage to a minimum and being kinder to the environment, especially with petrol & diesel costs going through the roof!

We are now finding out what Dr Beeching and his cronies inflicted on the country was absolute folly and it is time to not only to rebuild the smaller (call them feeder or cross country branches if you like) but enhance the GWML, MML, West Coast, East Coast & East Anglia mainlines too.
 

tbtc

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It'll never happen, but its reassuring that a main political party (especially one that may be in a strong bargaining position if the expected hung parliament happens) has a wish list like this.

I'm not convinced that we need all these brand new lines (you could easily increase capacity much cheaper by not having two/ three car trains running on some cross country (note, lower case "c") services

Overall a positive story, and good to see a political party come out with some ideas on how to make the country a better place rather than trading insulting slogans with pictures of Gene Hunt from Ashes to Ashes - this Lib Dem approach is rather grown up
 

GNERman

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interesting how skipton-colne is the first mentioned line for reopening - it wouldn't be that our november conference has changed his views would it....
 

wintonian

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It's a party proposal so I doubt there is a publicly avalible document, you will probably have to wait for the manifesto to get any more if any detail. You are probably better off emailing them to see what they say.
 

moonrakerz

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Put your hand on your heart and ..... does ANYONE honestly believe any of this would actually happen even if the Liberals won every seat in the House of Commons ?????
 

PhilipW

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Put your hand on your heart and ..... does ANYONE honestly believe any of this would actually happen even if the Liberals won every seat in the House of Commons ?????

No, I'm sure not all of would be. But Yes, I'm sure some of it would be.

Skipton-Colne re-opening and electrification making possible through Blackpool-to-Leeds electric services makes an awful lot of sense to me.

Uckfield-Lewes re-opening and electifrication making through services over that route from Eastbourne and Newhaven and relieving pressure on the Brighton mainline as well as giving a diversionary route for it as well also makes an awful lot of sense to me.

For a country that talks about re-opening lines but never actually does anything about it, I welcome this document and its ambitions. I hope that some of its proposals do come to fruition. I therefore hope that one of the other two big parties adopt their proposals. Come on Labour and Conservatives, the Lib Dems have lead. Steal some of their ideas and let's do it.
 
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Mojo

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After battling the Lib Dems for years in Bristol over transport issues (until 2008), I could never trust or believe anything they say on transport.
 
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Dai.

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After battling the Lib Dems for years in Bristol over transport issues (until 2008), I could never trust or believe anything they say on transport.

I am with Mojo on this, although it sounds good, I don't believe that what they say will come to light.
 

Ivo

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I honestly believe that some of it woulfd come to light. But when you consider that this would merely entail short already-planned electrification and a few short routes (Skelmersdale for instance) that would please our PTEs, this isn't saying much.

There are plenty of old routes down here which could be used to take traffic off of the roads, including some relatively simple ones, such as redoubling the line from Castle Cary to Yeovil and Weymouth, it is strangled by the single line sections, a chord to/from the Castle Cary line to the Waterloo line (Bradford Abbas side & there used to be one!) and from the Waterloo line to Weymouth line would make journeys from Wiltshire/Devon to Dorset Coast a cinch. The A37 is a nightmare journey from Bristol to Weymouth, a journey that is going to be quite popular in the next 18 months, as will a journeys from the other parts of the West.

You think it's a nightmare journey now, wait until 2012...! The Olympics should be an incentive to double this route to allow an hourly frequency between Westbury and Weymouth (two-hourly from each of Bristol and Swindon perhaps), which after the event could be enhanced to permit through running towards Poole and Bournemouth by bypassing Dorchester. Weymouth passengers could always double-back on themselves, although obviously we would have to ensure that there is no extra cost involved. Whether such an idea would ever happen, though - even with £3.5bn available - is doubtful at best.

Still, if this plan is genuine, and can be proven before the Election, I might even consider voting for them. Might.
 

PhilipW

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I don't believe anything any of them say, like just about everyone else.

While cynicism is a key part of politics, and I am just as cynical as everyone else, I think we have to give a little credit where credit is due to any politician or any party that does come up with some positive proposals.

I give great credit to Andrew Adonis who has propositioned HS2 and has given approval to the GWR electrification and the 4 schemes in Lancashire. If he were to continue as Transport Secretary after the election, I believe that all these would progress and further schemes would be announced.

I give credit to the Lib Dems for being enthusiastic about electrification and rail re-openings. I welcome that they have given a specific list. Even if only some of these see the light of day, that would be a great achievement in itself. Whatever negative feelings one may have against the Lib Dems I have never thought of them as being anti public transport.

I would also wish that I could give some credit to the Conservatives. However as they have not given any specific views on rail improvements and enhancements that is rather difficult. I await some details in the coming weeks.
 

Mojo

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I would also wish that I could give some credit to the Conservatives. However as they have not given any specific views on rail improvements and enhancements that is rather difficult. I await some details in the coming weeks.
You must have missed it then. The Conservatives were the first to publish details of their rail policies over a year ago, which have been updated and clarified in the last few months. Initially Chris Grayling who was very knowledgable in the sector really put the frighteners on the Labour Government and now Theresa Villiers has had her say.

http://www.conservatives.com/~/media/Files/Downloadable Files/Railreview.ashx?dl=true
 

Metroland

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I think probably out of all the parties the Lib-dems are probably the most pro rail - though I quite believe what Mojo has to say.

Adonis has been good in Labour, but before then we had to put up with a rag-tag of ministers - including Alistair Darling who invoked the 'Darling Cuts' with light rail.

Both Labour and Tory (through the way they privatised the network) haven't helped with costs, which hasn't helped with re-openings.

I also do wonder why we are spending £160 million in Cambs to open a bus way, which nobody wants, and offers no journey time savings, when the same money could have been spent on East-West Rail, which would have been very useful. This was of course the brain child of the Tory party, but the lack of East-West reopening is down to all the parties, especially Labour. The Tories have also done their best to put Nottingham Tram schemes on ice. Boris has also cancelled a lot of transport schemes in London.

I'd like to trust the Tories more, but I find it very hard to on a number of issues - not just rail. As a floating voter, I don't disagree with all they stand for, but you only have to read the very anti-rail blogs from people like John Redwood to wonder what they would really be like.

The question is, will the next transport secretary be Theresa Villiers or Theresa Villian?
 

whoshotjimmi

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In this situation, the argument of taking money away from roads and using it on railways will not go down very well with a large number of voters. The primary reason being that people pay an awful lot of money to use the road - what with car tax, fuel tax, VAT, green taxes on new cars, not to mention congestion charging etc. I think a lot of people would be very angry at paying all this money to use something and almost all of the money going somewhere else. If the roads budget was suddenly slashed by 90%, car usage would not suddenly drop by 90%.

I am all for rail expansion and improvement. But it won't help me get to work. And I dare say a very large number of people would agree with me. This just appears to be another throw away policy from a political party of no hopers who will never see government. Sadly, Nick Griffin and his band of merry men are more likely to gain power.
 

wintonian

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But if we did have the transport network in place then a good number of pepole wouldn't need to pay their road fund licence and what not, and for those that raly do need to use the car for work/ disability/ there are still some areas without public transport, then you could offer them some kind of tax break.
 

Aictos

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I agree with the proposals but watered down to 70% cuts in the road building budget.

Also would see a freeze in any guided busway proposals with the money used for heavy rail or trams.

More lines would be open which are viable and not just because it's the IT thing to do.

Giving current operators the chance to bid for longer franchises providing investment is put back into the system with the TOCs being able to order additional stock without being told by the DfT that they can't.

High Speed Rail would have to take a backseat until the Classic routes have the much needed capacity improvements.

I mean if a hung parliament is going to happened then a joint Liberal Democrat and Conservative operation would be interesting with the Liberals running the treasury and the dft, these plans have a good chance of going thoigh.
 
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Waverley125

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a few ideas for Lib Dems to consider

Reopen

Skipton-Colne
Leeds-Otley
Leeds-Wetherby-Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton
Boston-Lincoln
Skegness-Lincoln
Skegness-Louth-Grimsby
Spalding-Boston
Spalding-March
Grantham-Lincoln
Peterborough-Northampton
Cambridge-Sandy-Bedford-Bletchley-Oxford
Bletchley-Banbury
Okehampton-Plymouth
Bradford-Cleckheaton-Wakefield
Lincoln-Retford (direct line)
Carlisle-Edinburgh
Aylesbury-Rugby-Leicester
Spalding-Kings Lynn
Kings Lynn-Norwich
Kings Lynn-Hunstanton
Wisbech-March
Wisbech-Kings Lynn
Wisbech-Peterborough
Lewes-Uckfield
Pickering-Malton
Battersby-Northallerton
Ferryhill-Pelaw
Shincliffe-Sunderland
Skipton-Ilkley
Ruabon-Barmouth
Alnmouth-Alnwick
Sheffield-Penistone-Manchester
Matlock-Buxton

improvements

ECML 4 track London-York
100 mph S&C
Peterborough flyover
Reading remodelling

Wiring

Leeds-Halifax-Huddersfield
Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester
Leeds-Harrogate-York
Leeds-Micklefield-York
Leeds-Selby-Hull
Leeds-Moorthorpe-Sheffield
Leeds-Castleford-Goole
Leeds-Wakefield-Barnsley-Sheffield
Doncaster-Selby
Doncaster-Goole
Doncaster-Sheffield
York-Scarborough
Northallerton-Middlesbrough
Peterborough-Spalding-Sleaford-Lincoln-Doncaster
Ely-Peterborough
Ipswich-Ely
Ipswich-Cambridge
Peterborough-Leicester-Birmingham
Reading-Exeter-Plymouth-Penzance
Basingstoke-Exeter
Hurst Green-Lewes
Taunton-Bristol-Birmingham-Derby
Edinburgh-Dundee-Aberdeen
Glasgow-Dundee
Edinburgh-Perth-Inverness
Halifax-Todmorden-Rochdale-Manchester Vic.
Hebden Bridge-Burnley-Blackburn-Preston
Carnforth-Barrow in Furness
Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury
Crewe-Chester-Holyhead/Llandudno
Nottingham-Sheffield
Derby-Bakewell-Manchester
Doncaster-Cleethorpes
Sheffield-Manchester
 

dfishw

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ive glanced through the proposeals did they mention the re-opening of the line through matlock to manchester allowing direct leiester/derby manchester services to run again (though they could just run anyway via sheffield). Its a pity they will never win but the only hope of this ever happeneing is a hung parliament but i suspect even then it will be watered down esp with the debt we have now. That said it is a good peice of work. I agree these should really be done now (together with other improvement works) before we start high speed 1 cos i agree it wont solve everything.
 

thegrich37423

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Sadly this is all too common a policy for a party which is detached from the reality of the situation in this country. Opening old railway lines is fine, investing in the current infrastructure is something else. For a party claiming such grand schemes when the timing is a little convenient, its all a complete pipedream.
The roads have top priority in all cases, whoever comes to power. Whatever your feelings on new busways, they will help to revitalise areas of growth the same way that railways did. It is the novelty of such schemes which is why people are so quick to pour scorn over them. Lets see what the Cambridge busway for instance delivers before we are quick to condemn it with the 'means will inevitably justify the ends' sermon.
It is very difficult to take a lot of proposals mentioned in this thread seriously when the priorities haven't been straightened out. Sort out the current infrastructure first before reopening new lines.
 
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