Leyland to Warrington

[NewcastleBrown]

hi,

I need to go from Leyland to Warrington Central via Manchester Oxford Road and I can't for the life of me work out wether I can do this on a Leyland to Warrington Any Permitted tickets.

Sometimes the journey planners offer it and sometimes they don't so I'm a bit confused.

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[185143]

No, stupidly!

Exactly how that is 'Any Permitted' I'd love to know!!

 

[bb21]

Yes, it is permitted via Bolton and Manchester.

Missed one line in 643 which forbid an entirely reasonable route.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Although the routeing guide maps appear to allow it, there is a negative easement with specifically prohibits it:

700266
Customers travelling from Warrington Central, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook and Irlam to Chorley, Leyland and Preston in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may not travel via Manchester Oxford Road. This easement applies in both directions.

It is classified as a circuitous route!

What is weird if you travel to Warrington Bank Quay, NRE provides an itinerary at the Any Permitted price, but allows travel via Warrington Central, with a walk to Bank Quay

 

[bb21]

Bloody negative easements.

In that case a change of route excess would apply, for the difference between the Any Permitted fare and the Via Manchester fare, if you already hold the former.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a silly way of handling things. The fares clearly need to be routed ANY PERMITTED and NOT MANCHESTER rather than doing this.

Neil

 

[NewcastleBrown]

Thanks - it's nice to know it's not obvious and I wasn't being a complete idiot!

 

[Merseysider]

Bloody negative easements.

In that case a change of route excess would apply, for the difference between the Any Permitted fare and the Via Manchester fare, if you already hold the former.

Indeed.

However the amount of guards who keep themselves up-to-date on every easement published is probably quite close to zero.

Aside from the shortest route being via Deansgate, I can't see how travelling via MCO would ever be detected, let alone objected to.

The easements and to an extent, the RG, are primarily there to determine what journey planners will offer for sale, not what will be accepted in practice.

I love how it's 'circuitous' to double back half a mile in a group station...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Aside from the shortest route being via Deansgate....

Erm, the through fare is to "Warrington Stns". I doubt very much that via Deansgate is shorter than going to Wigan and then to Bank Quay.

 

[Merseysider]

Erm, the through fare is to "Warrington Stns". I doubt very much that via Deansgate is shorter than going to Wigan and then to Bank Quay.

And we have established numerous times that the passenger can choose which station in a group they travel to/from. The shortest route from Leyland to Warrington Central is via Deansgate.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

And we have established numerous times that the passenger can choose which station in a group they travel to/from. The shortest route from Leyland to Warrington Central is via Deansgate.

Have we?

So what's the longest "shortest route" from Manchester Stns to London Terminals then?

 

[Merseysider]

Have we?

So what's the longest "shortest route" from Manchester Stns to London Terminals then?

Well your employer Northern Rail certainly seems to agree with me.

The second half of your post is off-topic and won't be responded to.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well your employer Northern Rail certainly seems to agree with me.

The second half of your post is off-topic and won't be responded to.

You mean "a member of the twitter team, who may or may not have had training on routeing and ticketing matters, seems to agree with me", I'm not convinced that is the same thing. I've seen lots of posts on this forum telling us how twitter teams, journey planners and staff of all grades are wrong at times, funny how you believe them to be correct here though.

As for the second part, I do think it is relevant to the point being made, but I'm not surprised you didn't answer it.

 

[Merseysider]

I refer the honourable gentleman to our very own Fares & Ticketing Guide, with an extract from The Manual, reproduced with permission from ATOC.

The following stations are grouped together with common prices for travel to/from any station in the group. Tickets issued to or from station groups listed below are available at any associated station in the group, subject to normal route availability.

Origin/Destination: Warrington Stations
Origin/destination as shown on most tickets, some TIS and in the Fares Data: WARRINGTON STNS
Allow travel to/from: Warrington Bank Quay | Warrington Central
Inter-availability applies to these ticket types and/or tickets issued from: Any ticket type including Season Tickets

I really don't see how the concept of group stations is so difficult to grasp

 

[crehld]

You mean "a member of the twitter team, who may or may not have had training on routeing and ticketing matters, seems to agree with me", I'm not convinced that is the same thing. I've seen lots of posts on this forum telling us how twitter teams, journey planners and staff of all grades are wrong at times, funny how you believe them to be correct here though.

Yes I seen plenty of such posts by members of staff on this forum who claim to have an infallible knowledge, despite what T&Cs, the NRCoC and all the rest of it may say to the contrary. Fact is the system is so darn complicated I doubt there is anyone who can claim to have an authoritative knowledge of it!

On this matter you don't have to take JakeF's or Twitter's word for it. The National Fares Manual states:

Fares for certain ... cities and towns are shown to and from a notional common station[.] All fares are quoted and all tickets should be issued to and from [these notional group] stations except for local journeys between two stations in the same group. Tickets issued to and from these [notional group] stations are valid to or from any of their associated stations, subject to normal route availability.

So a ticket to WARRINGTON STNS is valid to either Bank Quay or Central. And the shortest available route by rail to Central is as JakeF says via Deansgate.

This is the best evidence I can find at present. Perhaps I'm wrong or I've overlooked something. If so Do feel free to correct and enlighten me, backing up with appropriate evidence of course.

 

[bb21]

I don't think there is anything definitive either way in hairyhandedfool's defence, but I prefer it this way personally. There are good arguments to be made on both sides and we have never been able to reach consensus on this issue.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I refer the honourable gentleman to our very own Fares & Ticketing Guide, with an extract from The Manual, reproduced with permission from ATOC.

I really don't see how the concept of group stations is so difficult to grasp

I don't see how the concept of THE SHORTEST ROUTE is so difficult to grasp, but regularly we have people claiming it can or can't include walks between stations that may or may not have shorter walks than between some of the platforms on those stations, that may or may not include bits of track that may or may not be usable in only one direction (and any easements that may or may not affect it), that a route may or may not be included depending on how full the moon is and whether or not it is a Wednesday in August, etc, etc. But I think I might be digressing a bit now.

Yes I seen plenty of such posts by members of staff on this forum who claim to have an infallible knowledge, despite what T&Cs, the NRCoC and all the rest of it may say to the contrary. Fact is the system is so darn complicated I doubt there is anyone who can claim to have an authoritative knowledge of it!

On this matter you don't have to take JakeF's or Twitter's word for it. The National Fares Manual states:

Fares for certain ... cities and towns are shown to and from a notional common station[.] All fares are quoted and all tickets should be issued to and from [these notional group] stations except for local journeys between two stations in the same group. Tickets issued to and from these [notional group] stations are valid to or from any of their associated stations, subject to normal route availability.

So a ticket to WARRINGTON STNS is valid to either Bank Quay or Central. And the shortest available route by rail to Central is as JakeF says via Deansgate.

This is the best evidence I can find at present. Perhaps I'm wrong or I've overlooked something. If so Do feel free to correct and enlighten me, backing up with appropriate evidence of course.

"subject to normal route availability."

 

[Merseysider]

I don't see how the concept of THE SHORTEST ROUTE is so difficult to grasp, but regularly we have people claiming it can or can't include walks between stations that may or may not have shorter walks than between some of the platforms on those stations, that may or may not include bits of track that may or may not be usable in only one direction (and any easements that may or may not affect it), that a route may or may not be included depending on how full the moon is and whether or not it is a Wednesday in August, etc, etc. But I think I might be digressing a bit now.

The shortest route is quite simple to grasp. Let's look at it the other way around. I turn up at Warrington Central and ask for a ticket to Leyland. I can take the shortest route from Warrington Central to Leyland, which is via Deansgate. Nothing to do with full moons or obscure bits of track in this case: it's quite straightforward.

Or are you saying I am forced to walk a mile to Warrington Bank Quay then travel to Leyland?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The permitted routes may or may not be limited to the shortest route, but if you are asking me what the shortest route from Warrington Stns to Leyland is, I think that the very obvious answer of "from Bank Quay and via Wigan" is the only one I can give.

We had a thread, a fair while ago now, about travel from Bradford YK Stns to New Pudsey (you might remember it), with some commenting that they thought the ticket was valid from Bradford Forster Square via Leeds as that was the shortest route. IIRC, quite a few people disagreed and said it was only valid from Bradford Interchange because this was clearly the shortest route. If you are right, then what was all the fuss about?

 

[Merseysider]

National Rail Enquiries will give an itinerary for New Pudsey - Bradford Forster Square though, by inputting 'avoid BDI'.

Maybe it interprets the shortest route differently to me or you?

The shortest route only applies to actual physical stations, not groups of stations. You are correct that the shortest route from Leyland to either Warrington station is via the WCML but unless Warrington Stns is split into WBQ and WAC for ticketing purposes this ambiguity will continue.

 

[crehld]

So a ticket to xxxx STNS is only valid to and from the station which is the shortest distance to/from my origin/destination. I'm genuinely interested because I have a ticket to PORTSMOUTH STNS for Tuesday and want to alight at Portsmouth Harbour. This appears to be an impossible Journey!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

National Rail Enquiries will give an itinerary for New Pudsey - Bradford Forster Square though, by inputting 'avoid BDI'.

Maybe it interprets the shortest route differently to me or you?

A computer is only as good as it's programming.

Example:

NRES - Patricroft to Wigan Wallgate, travel today.

1729 Patricoft to Manchester Victioria arrives 1745
1752 Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate arrives 1817

1824 Patricroft to Manchester Victoria arrives 1841
1907 Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate (BUS) arrives 2002

First option - two tickets required. £7.70
Second option - one ticket required. £4.20

....The shortest route only applies to actual physical stations, not groups of stations....

As the shortest route is measured by miles as noted in the National Rail Timetable, that much is obvious, but never have I seen reference to more than one shortest route for a given ticket.

....You are correct that the shortest route from Leyland to either Warrington station is via the WCML but unless Warrington Stns is split into WBQ and WAC for ticketing purposes this ambiguity will continue.

If you believe there is an ambiguity, I don't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So a ticket to xxxx STNS is only valid to and from the station which is the shortest distance to/from my origin/destination. I'm genuinely interested because I have a ticket to PORTSMOUTH STNS for Tuesday and want to alight at Portsmouth Harbour. This appears to be an impossible Journey!

The National Rail Conditions of carriage note three ways of determining a permitted route. The shortest route is one of them.

 

[Merseysider]

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree because neither of us are going to change the other's mind. I am of the opinion that pax can choose which station out of a STNS group they wish to travel to/from if the ticket is printed with STNS, regardless of the route to either, and I am also of the opinion that pax can take the shortest route to the 'further away' station.

Maybe I'll see you at a Fares Workshop, maybe I won't, but there's no point going over old ground here all day.

No hard feelings if you decide to change your mind and agree with me

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or are you saying I am forced to walk a mile to Warrington Bank Quay then travel to Leyland?

There is an argument for that in case of station groups. It would be rather ridiculous, for example, to travel from Burscough Junction to Southport via Preston and Wigan - nobody but an enthusiast would do that, so there is no reason for a fare allowing that to need to exist - an enthusiast will know how to combine tickets to get that if they want it.

The sensible option would be to go to Burscough Bridge. And in Warrington's case, the sensible option would indeed be to travel from Bank Quay.

London terminals are a similar example. You wouldn't expect to be able to travel from Charing Cross to Watford Junction. They'd tell you to go to Euston by other means and travel from there, quite sensibly.

Neil

 

[kieron]

London terminals are a similar example. You wouldn't expect to be able to travel from Charing Cross to Watford Junction. They'd tell you to go to Euston by other means and travel from there, quite sensibly.

I don't think London is a similar example, because it's specifically mentioned in the Routeing Guide instructions. With London, you are only allowed to travel via stations which are on a valid route from origin to destination. ATOC also provides a spreadsheet showing which stations are on a valid route to each London Terminal. It may not be 100% consistent with the routeing guide, but it shows what the intention is clearly enough.

It's harder to make the argument elsewhere. Leyland-Warrington has a more expensive "via Manchester" fare, so NRE doesn't show an "any permitted" ticket in line with the example on F17 in the routeing guide. Sankey-Warrington only has "any permitted" tickets, and they are valid to either station according to NRE, at least so long as you don't double back on yourself.

In the absence of specific guidance from ATOC on how to calculate the shortest route between groups of stations, I'd be inclined to believe that the way the shortest route rule is programmed into journey planners reflects the way they want it to behave.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't think London is a similar example, because it's specifically mentioned in the Routeing Guide instructions....

The shortest route is in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. The Routeing Guide usually adds permitted routes to that.

....Sankey-Warrington only has "any permitted" tickets, and they are valid to either station according to NRE, at least so long as you don't double back on yourself....

I have the strangest feeling computer programmes have been mentioned previously in this thread.......

 

[crehld]

The shortest route is in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. The Routeing Guide usually adds permitted routes to that.

Yes the shortest route is always a valid route. And there is no requirement for the shortest route to be mapped in the routing guide. Thus Leyland to Warrington Central via Deansgate is always valid as it is the shortest possible route between these two stations. To me it's extremely clear and obvious. You obviously disagree for some reason I can't quite fathom, so let's just agree to disagree.

I have the strangest feeling computer programmes have been mentioned previously in this thread.......

The programming of NRE or booking websites is completely irrelevant in my view. If I have an itinerary from NRE, an official source of ticket validity information, which shows a ticket is valid along a certain route, I expect that validity to be honoured. Especially given the routing guide itself confirms any itinerary produced by NRE is always valid!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm actually tempted to buy the ticket and make the journey myself just to see what happens.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Plus am I right in thinking easement 700266 only forbids travel via Manchester Oxford Road, so changing at Deansgate is permitted anyway?

 

[sheff1]

Yes the shortest route is always a valid route. And there is no requirement for the shortest route to be mapped in the routing guide. Thus Leyland to Warrington Central via Deansgate is always valid as it is the shortest possible route between these two stations. To me it's extremely clear and obvious.

Yes, the shortest route rule is clear and obvious.

However, some people seem to think that because Warrington Central (and Bradford Forster Sq and ... and ... ) are not shown on the ticket then NRCoC condtion 13 (a) does not apply. By this logic, any ticket from/to XXX STNS could not be used at all as the station from/to which you are travelling is not shown on the ticket. Fortunately, such nonsense would appear to be confined to this forum. In real life no ticket inspector has ever stated that I am forbidden to travel by train to/from Warrington Cen, Bradford F Sq etc etc.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....You obviously disagree for some reason I can't quite fathom....

Oh come now, it's not hard to work out, given that I have pretty much spelt it out in this thread.

....The programming of NRE or booking websites is completely irrelevant in my view. If I have an itinerary from NRE, an official source of ticket validity information, which shows a ticket is valid along a certain route, I expect that validity to be honoured. Especially given the routing guide itself confirms any itinerary produced by NRE is always valid!....

The contract between passenger and TOC(s) is the NRCoC. At no point in the NRCoC does it say permitted routes are determined by the NRES website. It mentions the Routeing Guide, but then the only mention in there of the NRES website is to check routes shown by the Routeing Guide, so again we cannot say that routes shown on the NRES website are correct, except where they are also shown in the Routeing Guide. In the case of routes shown in the Routeing Guide, however, we are not talking about the shortest route as that is valid before we need to look at it.

It would be interesting to test in court which holds more weight, a website that may or may not be the official source of information (but currently has a disclaimer on it in regards to errors and omissions) or the contract that you actually agree to when you buy the ticket.

....Plus am I right in thinking easement 700266 only forbids travel via Manchester Oxford Road, so changing at Deansgate is permitted anyway?

Assuming via Deansgate is a permitted route, I would see no argument with that, so all you have to do is show that via Deansgate is a permitted route....

 

[Merseysider]

I was planning on not getting involved in this thread again, but I can't help but intervene when you post something as grossly wrong as this.

Oh come now, it's not hard to work out, given that I have pretty much spelt it out in this thread.

Part of The contract between passenger and TOC(s) is the NRCoC. At no point in the NRCoC does it say permitted routes are determined by the NRES website. It mentions the Routeing Guide, but then the only mention in there of the NRES website is to check routes shown by the Routeing Guide, Wrong - see below. so again we cannot say that routes shown on the NRES website are correct,Wrong - see below. except where they are also shown in the Routeing Guide. In the case of routes shown in the Routeing Guide, however, we are not talking about the shortest route as that is valid before we need to look at it.

It would be interesting to test in court which holds more weight, a website that may or may not be the official source of information (but currently has a disclaimer on it in regards to errors and omissions) or the contract that you actually agree to when you buy the ticket.

Assuming via Deansgate is a permitted route, No need to assume, it's on the shortest route from Leyland to Warrington Central. I would see no argument with that, so all you have to do is show that via Deansgate is a permitted route....

(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide.

This guide shows the full range of permitted routes available for use with tickets on
the National Rail network. The content has been approved by the Department for
Transport. If you are planning a journey we would strongly advise you to make use of
the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk. Any ticket indicated for use in
conjunction with a particular journey when using the Journey Planner will
automatically be valid for the route and service indicated.

Jesus christ