Leyland Motors Siding refettling

[Oxfordblues]

I noted passing the ex-Leyland Motors site near Farington Junction on the WCML today that the sidings appear to be in the process of refettling. Could this perchance be in anticipation of a new traffic flow? Does anyone on here know what sort of traffic might be involved, and where from/to? I know that GBRf are keen to develop their involvement in the automotive business.

 

[FordFocus]

I believe it is becoming a temporary stabling point for Northern units when Blackpool is cut off during the engineering works.

 

[snowball]

It was mentioned in some posts in the Blackpool-Manchester electrification thread starting on page 182.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Thanks both. I recall in Speedlink days the Arpley-Blackburn trip would often call in there to collect a couple of Lowliners loaded with new vans.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I believe it is becoming a temporary stabling point for Northern units when Blackpool is cut off during the engineering works.

Yep that is what it is set to become. May become permanent but that is not known yet.

 

[Elecman]

Don't think it will be permanent given the additional site at Blackburn.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's for delivery of Northern's new DMUs. Post Brexit the cost of the 195s is no longer economical so there'll be an order for 120 vehicles from Leyland which builds on their experience of supplying cheap rolling stock during the 1980s. The Pacers and dogboxes may be going, but there's going to be the Son of Pacer coming to a railway near you!

(Just on the off chance that it wasn't obvious, this post is very much tongue-in-cheek!)

 

[edwin_m]

Don't think it will be permanent given the additional site at Blackburn.

Isn't everybody still looking for an EMU site - could this one be wired?

 

[WatcherZero]

Not sure there would be the space for permanent facilities to be built.

 

[edwin_m]

Which permanent facilities need more space than temporary ones?

 

[YorkshireBear]

My comment is based on the fact that the railway is expert in turning temporary solutions into a permanent feature. We are not going to be short of trains up North soon so maybe it will have a purpose post Blackpool.

 

[WatcherZero]

Which permanent facilities need more space than temporary ones?

The Leyland application is a 1.2 hectare site and consists of 10 portacabins (1 5x3m and 9 6x2.4m), a 36,000 litre fuel tank, 7x200m approx. sidings, raised fencing and some hard standing with the application saying that once finished all the new facilities with the exception of pedestrian walkways will be removed again. It says the site will accommodate up to 12 staff but will usually be considerably lower than that. The application says the site is needed until May 2018 with possible extension to Dec 2019. The Councils planning approval includes the condition that the site be cleared by 1st Jan 2020.

The Blackburn application on the other hand allows for 20-40 staff, 160,000 litre fuel tanks along with 3x5000 litre tanks for other fluids, a 12.3x12.9 meter staff block, 11.5x4.2m control room, permanent 25m carriage wash, 4.8mx28m carriage wash machinery room, 25x7.5m sand storage, CET and water storage building and 4.8x3.3m shunter staff cabin. 8x125m approx. sidings.

 

[edwin_m]

The Leyland application is a 1.2 hectare site and consists of 10 portacabins (1 5x3m and 9 6x2.4m), a 36,000 litre fuel tank, 7x200m approx. sidings, raised fencing and some hard standing with the application saying that once finished all the new facilities with the exception of pedestrian walkways will be removed again. It says the site will accommodate up to 12 staff but will usually be considerably lower than that. The application says the site is needed until May 2018 with possible extension to Dec 2019. The Councils planning approval includes the condition that the site be cleared by 1st Jan 2020.

The Blackburn application on the other hand allows for 20-40 staff, 160,000 litre fuel tanks along with 3x5000 litre tanks for other fluids, a 12.3x12.9 meter staff block, 11.5x4.2m control room, permanent 25m carriage wash, 4.8mx28m carriage wash machinery room, 25x7.5m sand storage, CET and water storage building and 4.8x3.3m shunter staff cabin. 8x125m approx. sidings.

Thanks for this. Seems an expensive way of going about things if it is all to be removed including the sidings, when there is a big un-met need for EMU stabling in the North West in a few years time.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Thanks for this. Seems an expensive way of going about things if it is all to be removed including the sidings, when there is a big un-met need for EMU stabling in the North West in a few years time.

My bold. And this is the point, the need for additional EMU stabling and servicing facilities is quite a way off yet. When Preston to Blackpool North is modernised the existing facility at Blackpool will be converted to an electric train depot and there may not even be a fueling point there anymore as Blackburn will take over that role. Indeed the new Blackburn depot will be a much more efficient base for operation of Colne to Blackpool South services as well as being slightly better for Manchester to Clitheroe services, and will relieve Newton Heath of some of its considerable workload.

As for EMU facilities there will be no need for anything more until the Westhoughton and Windermere lines are wired. It's still quite possible that Wigan Springs Branch will become an EMU servicing depot but not until it's really needed. My understanding is that it hasn't been developed as a short-term DMU facility due to noise issues; it may have been a significant diesel loco depot in the past but times have moved on and it was deemed unsuitable.

Remember too that Trans-Pennine electrification is not likely to involve that much operation for Northern. TPE facilities are already available at Ardwick and any new depot is more likely to be in Yorkshire. For purely stabling and minor servicing needs Guide Bridge would appear handily placed.

 

[WatcherZero]

Thanks for this. Seems an expensive way of going about things if it is all to be removed including the sidings, when there is a big un-met need for EMU stabling in the North West in a few years time.

The tracks and the track crossing paving is remaining. All the structures will be removed though.

 

[edwin_m]

The tracks and the track crossing paving is remaining. All the structures will be removed though.

So it could be electrified and used for EMU storage with relatively little abortive cost, which is good...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My bold. And this is the point, the need for additional EMU stabling and servicing facilities is quite a way off yet. When Preston to Blackpool North is modernised the existing facility at Blackpool will be converted to an electric train depot and there may not even be a fueling point there anymore as Blackburn will take over that role. Indeed the new Blackburn depot will be a much more efficient base for operation of Colne to Blackpool South services as well as being slightly better for Manchester to Clitheroe services, and will relieve Newton Heath of some of its considerable workload.

As for EMU facilities there will be no need for anything more until the Westhoughton and Windermere lines are wired. It's still quite possible that Wigan Springs Branch will become an EMU servicing depot but not until it's really needed. My understanding is that it hasn't been developed as a short-term DMU facility due to noise issues; it may have been a significant diesel loco depot in the past but times have moved on and it was deemed unsuitable.

Remember too that Trans-Pennine electrification is not likely to involve that much operation for Northern. TPE facilities are already available at Ardwick and any new depot is more likely to be in Yorkshire. For purely stabling and minor servicing needs Guide Bridge would appear handily placed.

...but if Blackpool becomes an EMU facility I agree there is likely to be enough EMU stabling in the Preston/Fylde area.

Do we know if Guide Bridge is definitely going ahead?

 

[kevd]

Been past today and a carriage wash has been put in and the trackwork from the mainline has been replaced.

 

[childwallblues]

Remember too that Trans-Pennine electrification is not likely to involve that much operation for Northern. TPE facilities are already available at Ardwick and any new depot is more likely to be in Yorkshire. For purely stabling and minor servicing needs Guide Bridge would appear handily placed.[/QUOTE]

Also TPE also use Alstom at Edge Hill for units stabling in Liverpool overnight.

 

[Bovverboy]

In respect of the new Blackburn stabling facility, here's a quote from the Lancashire Telegraph.

The project is linked to the £20million upgrade of the line from Clitheroe and Blackburn through Darwen and Bolton to Manchester paving the way for half-hourly services throughout the day from next year.

If it is intended that the Blackburn site be ready for next year then the implication is that it will be ready in time to take over from Blackpool North CMD. However because the Blackburn site is not going to be quite so large as Blackpool North, that makes sense of the temporary facility at Leyland, i.e. to make up the difference.
Everyone seems to be leaving things a bit late, but I suppose that if the stabling sidings (at Blackburn) are usable then everything else (carriage wash, etc) can be added later.
I don't think there's any reason to suppose that because the refurbished Blackpool site will be able to accommodate electrics that it will necessarily be barred to diesels. Lots of depots/stabling points are fully electrified (Preston, Longsight, Stockport, Edge Hill) but they still accommodate diesels. I wouldn't be surprised if the four units off York-Blackpool services continue to stable at Blackpool, perhaps even a couple of Colne units as well.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

An electrified Blackpool CSD would not mean it is barred to diesels but the environmental considerations of fueling means that after a rebuild I would not expect there to still be a fueling point at Blackpool. Most likely two or three of the York route sets would form a late departure from Blackpool to Blackburn and fuel there.

 

[Altfish]

Do we know if Guide Bridge is definitely going ahead?

I passed today, a new depot has gone in but it appears to be for Track Machines. All the existing sidings seem to be taken up with obsolete Freightliner wagons

 

[PHILIPE]

An electrified Blackpool CSD would not mean it is barred to diesels but the environmental considerations of fueling means that after a rebuild I would not expect there to still be a fueling point at Blackpool. Most likely two or three of the York route sets would form a late departure from Blackpool to Blackburn and fuel there.

Fratton Depot fuels DMUs amd services EMUs but third rail ones.

 

[Darren R]

In respect of the new Blackburn stabling facility, here's a quote from the Lancashire Telegraph.

The project is linked to the £20million upgrade of the line from Clitheroe and Blackburn through Darwen and Bolton to Manchester paving the way for half-hourly services throughout the day from next year.

If it is intended that the Blackburn site be ready for next year then the implication is that it will be ready in time to take over from Blackpool North CMD. However because the Blackburn site is not going to be quite so large as Blackpool North, that makes sense of the temporary facility at Leyland, i.e. to make up the difference.
Everyone seems to be leaving things a bit late, but I suppose that if the stabling sidings (at Blackburn) are usable then everything else (carriage wash, etc) can be added later.
I don't think there's any reason to suppose that because the refurbished Blackpool site will be able to accommodate electrics that it will necessarily be barred to diesels. Lots of depots/stabling points are fully electrified (Preston, Longsight, Stockport, Edge Hill) but they still accommodate diesels. I wouldn't be surprised if the four units off York-Blackpool services continue to stable at Blackpool, perhaps even a couple of Colne units as well.

I wouldn't take too literally what the Lancashire Telegraph article had to say in its report about the new stabling facility in Blackburn. The £20 million upgrade of the Manchester to Clitheroe line to which they refer is nothing to do with it. Most of that money was spent last year on the capacity improvements through Darwen.

I seem to remember, from elsewhere on the Forum, that the remodelled and electrified depot at Blackpool North will be slightly smaller than it currently is, in order to allow for platform realignment at the station. Consequently, it will have no diesel fueling point. However, once the wires go up between Preston and Blackpool North, the only diesel operated services out of the latter station will be the hourly service to York, which are to be Class 195s running under the Northern Connect brand. Presumably the handful of these units which will need to stay overnight on the western side will do so at the new depot in Blackburn.

The temporary facility at Leyland is to provide a stop-gap measure whilst the work goes on at Blackpool North. During this time, units will be redistributed to either Preston or Leyland. The Blackburn depot does not need to be as big as the current Blackpool North CMD, as it will only be taking over some of the duties currently covered by Blackpool once all the work is complete.

In terms of "leaving things a bit late," I suspect that it will take longer to fully train the new drivers at Blackburn than it will to construct the facilities there. The depot is scheduled for opening in December 2017, which is when timetable enhancements start. Until then, it isn't needed.

 

[childwallblues]

In respect of the new Blackburn stabling facility, here's a quote from the Lancashire Telegraph.



If it is intended that the Blackburn site be ready for next year then the implication is that it will be ready in time to take over from Blackpool North CMD. However because the Blackburn site is not going to be quite so large as Blackpool North, that makes sense of the temporary facility at Leyland, i.e. to make up the difference.
Everyone seems to be leaving things a bit late, but I suppose that if the stabling sidings (at Blackburn) are usable then everything else (carriage wash, etc) can be added later.
I don't think there's any reason to suppose that because the refurbished Blackpool site will be able to accommodate electrics that it will necessarily be barred to diesels. Lots of depots/stabling points are fully electrified (Preston, Longsight, Stockport, Edge Hill) but they still accommodate diesels. I wouldn't be surprised if the four units off York-Blackpool services continue to stable at Blackpool, perhaps even a couple of Colne units as well.

Northern do not use Edge Hill since their own Depot at Allerton was opened. which has an allocation both Class 319 EMUs and Class 156 DMUs

 

[Bovverboy]

Northern do not use Edge Hill since their own Depot at Allerton was opened. which has an allocation both Class 319 EMUs and Class 156 DMUs

Sorry, I meant to mean Edge Hill was a depot which accommodates diesels, I didn't intend to imply that it accommodated Northern stock, which I know it doesn't.