Leyland classes 155 153

[superkev]

With all this talk of Pacer replacement not much talk about the 153/5s which are simmilarly constructed to the rust afflicted 142s. I don't think I'm alone in preffering a faster quieter light and airey 144 to a noisey knees under the chin 155.
Kev

 

[61653 HTAFC]

With all this talk of Pacer replacement not much talk about the 153/5s which are simmilarly constructed to the rust afflicted 142s. I don't think I'm alone in preffering a faster quieter light and airey 144 to a noisey knees under the chin 155.
Kev

It has been said that Porterbrook (owners of the 153/155s) don't see a long-term future for the 153s as single cars, due to the space lost once the existing toilet cubicles have been replaced by wheelchair accessible ones. On that basis, reforming them back into 155s would seem likely. This way, only one toilet cubicle is needed in each two-car set.

The condition of the vehicles has been brought into question, though I personally haven't heard anything official - just rumours of supposed 'body sag' from various members on here.

Given that pacers don't appear to have a long-term future in Northern land, there's likely to be a need for any serviceable stock to be kept going, so the 153/5s (and indeed the 150s) will have to be in a pretty poor state for them to be scrapped, I'd have thought.

For the record, 144s and 153/5s are both 75mph units, and I'm not sure I'd describe the 144s as "faster", though they may have a better power/weight ratio? The 153/5s are far from perfect (windows too high, airline seats too cramped, etc. etc.), but still better than even the best of the 144s in my opinion.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I'd rather be on a 153/155 that has bogies than on a pacer.

 

[superkev]

I'd rather be on a 153/155 that has bogies than on a pacer.

I came back from ManV to Hebden br on a 3 car 144 not long since and it was far superior to the designed by a dwarf 155 I went on.
Diff story of course on a curved route or poor track.
Each to there own opinions of course.
K

 

[alexl92]

I've done Leeds - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Bradford on both Pacers and 153/5s and the Sprinters are so much better. I'm not sure what you mean by 'designed by a dwarf' - the 142s/144s I've been on recently have the seats so close together that I, a lean 6ft tall male, could not sit facing straight forward because I couldn't get my knees into the gap when sitting straight on the seat.

The pacers MUST go first. Try traveling between Leeds and Harrogate on a pacer. If the deafening screech of the tight curve just before Crimple Valley Viaduct doesn't bother you, you might as well become Kim Jong-Un's PR co-coordinator.

As mentioned in another thread, Huddersfield to Bradford on a 142 or 144 is downright uncomfortable as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The condition of the vehicles has been brought into question, though I personally haven't heard anything official - just rumours of supposed 'body sag' from various members on here.

This is fairly visible if you look along one, particularly one with a stripe in the livery. I don't think its got a lot worse, though.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With all this talk of Pacer replacement not much talk about the 153/5s which are simmilarly constructed to the rust afflicted 142s.

Not massively so. They do use Leyland body panels, but there the similarity ends - they aren't on a freight underframe. I *think* they are a monocoque.

Neil

 

[fowler9]

The 155's were horrid units, I never have to travel on 153's. I was devastated when I found out my 37/4's and Mk 2's were getting replaced by them on Liverpool to Cardiffs.

 

[anthony263]

There are a few class 153's around which I have seen which do seem to be sagging/bending.

I have seen this on one ATW unit but the other units don't seem to have this issue

 

[Passenger John]

There are a few class 153's around which I have seen which do seem to be sagging/bending.

I have seen this on one ATW unit but the other units don't seem to have this issue

Try this one

 

[Wolfie]

Try this one

Ouch....

 

[yorksrob]

I've had them on enough stoppers from Vic to Leeds and don't mind them.

The best thing they could do would be to take a couple of seats out and provide a bit of extra room in the airline seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best thing they could do would be to take a couple of seats out and provide a bit of extra room in the airline seats.

Yes, I'd agree, the seat pitch is way too tight. ISTR the 155s are slightly better, so maybe this could be considered if they are converted back.

Neil

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I'd agree, the seat pitch is way too tight. ISTR the 155s are slightly better, so maybe this could be considered if they are converted back.

Neil

Indeed, although presence of a few bays of four makes them more bearable to my mind.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, although presence of a few bays of four makes them more bearable to my mind.

True, though not if anyone sits opposite (even the bays are fairly tight).

Neil

 

[Ash Bridge]

Last time I travelled on a Northern 153 was from Stockport on a Mid Cheshire Line service to Chester, I recall it had been fitted with Chapman seating, as this was around 13/14 years ago is this still the case or have they been altered again since then?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Last time I travelled on a Northern 153 was from Stockport on a Mid Cheshire Line service to Chester, I recall it had been fitted with Chapman seating, as this was around 13/14 years ago is this still the case or have they been altered again since then?

They got the same interior (Chapman seating as you say) as the North West Express 156s except for the inhuman seat pitch.

Neil

 

[fgwrich]

They got the same interior (Chapman seating as you say) as the North West Express 156s except for the inhuman seat pitch.

Neil

The worst of the fleet surely had to be the Regional Railways / Wales & West fleet which had the original Ashbourne's replaced with Class 158 seating. While somewhat ironically the W&W 158s received Chapman seating. So if the Ashbourne seats where somewhat ridiculously poor in comfort and just about height, the 158 seats in the 153s gave you a comfortable seat but was so low down you couldn't really see out of the windows, and didn't mind your knees upright. Meanwhile the 158s ran around until FGW refurbishment with the Chapmans looking rather scruffy and (as was Wessex's maintenance) rather worn on the padding.

I wonder what is causing the sagging issue with the 'Dogboxes' though - 66s are designed to flex a little when there is no fuel in the tanks, could the Sprinters be suffering because of the weight of the Engine / Transmission set up I wonder? The best way to spot a 'saggy sprinter' is to look along the orange cant rail line. Some seem to be better than others.

 

[Parallel]

FGW has fitted new seat cushions on their 153s that use Richmond seating, which boosts you up a couple of inches and now the backs of the seat are much more comfortable!

 

[Rapidash]

I don't mind the 153's too much, as long as they are fulfilling a suitable purpose like the Paignton - Newton Abbot shuttle or beefing up capacity with a 143.

It's been a few years since I last used one in rush hour from Central to Paignton, that was, uh......not pleasant. although when a pair of them cover for a conked out 143 its not too bad!

 

[47802]

Built by a crap bus company on a very bad day springs to mind.

Travelling on a 155 the other day well apart it being a crap unit it also had the usual level of Northern grubbiness, the floor looked like it had just come from a building site, the plastic panelling looked as though it had not been cleaned of painted since built, then add the limitations of the units themselves of poor legroom, windows designed for someone 8ft in height, and the noise from the engine has got to be the loudest of any sprinter unit.

Yes they are better than a Railbus but not much better and ideally they would get binned in the next few years along with the Railbuses but suspect that wont happen given the struggle even to get rid of the Railbuses.

 

[Ash Bridge]

They got the same interior (Chapman seating as you say) as the North West Express 156s except for the inhuman seat pitch.

Neil

Still the same then, can't remember the seat pitch problem it's too long ago now, and we don't see them south of Manchester these days ofcourse, but don't mind the Chapman seats at all. Regarding the FGW 153s, although they look smart and they keep them in nice order (Northern take note) the seats on these also lack legroom, and the backs are just too bolt upright for me! Was interesting what Rich mentioned about the 153s that received the 158 seats, forgot about that, agree with everything said though.

 

[sprinterguy]

Built by a crap bus company on a very bad day springs to mind.

I personally think that British Leyland excelled as a bus builder, and think it's a shame that they seem to have been unable to transfer that experience into train building. Metro Cammell, their antithesis as a train builder who also built buses, seemed to do much better in that respect.

Never could work out why they put the windows so high on the 155s. It's a criticism that's been levelled at them since they were new.

 

[47802]

I personally think that British Leyland excelled as a bus builder, and think it's a shame that they seem to have been unable to transfer that experience into train building. Metro Cammell, their antithesis as a train builder who also built buses, seemed to do much better in that respect.

Never could work out why they put the windows so high on the 155s. It's a criticism that's been levelled at them since they were new.

Excelled is not a word I would use for British Leyland and given they were a Nationalised Company there wasn't much choice.

British Leyland and their Buses are long gone (yes Ok there are former remnants of it in Volvo Buses and Optare etc) but the railway is still lumbered with this crap

 

[Ash Bridge]

I personally think that British Leyland excelled as a bus builder, and think it's a shame that they seem to have been unable to transfer that experience into train building. Metro Cammell, their antithesis as a train builder who also built buses, seemed to do much better in that respect.

Never could work out why they put the windows so high on the 155s. It's a criticism that's been levelled at them since they were new.

When you put the original Super Sprinters side by side, In other words Leylands class 155 & Met Cams class 156 we have the perfect demonstration of what you are saying, also if I remember correctly when new the 156s worked almost perfectly out of the box, on the other hand the 155s initially entered service and were then temporarily all pulled from service with door problems amongst other things?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never could work out why they put the windows so high on the 155s. It's a criticism that's been levelled at them since they were new.

High windows on stock of similar vintage to Mk3 LHCS/HSTs was deliberate - it was at the time felt that the view of the passing track could cause nausea. However it was more than a little overdone on the 155s.

This has later proven to be not the case, and modern stock (158 onwards) tends to have lower windows.

Neil

 

[sprinterguy]

Excelled is not a word I would use for British Leyland and given they were a Nationalised Company there wasn't much choice.

Well personally I would have thought that the Atlanteans and Leopards could have gone on more or less forever: Certainly there were Leyland Leopards still in regular, revenue earning service over challenging terrain in the Highlands of Scotland into the 21st century.

Nationalised or not that still didn’t make the British bus industry a one horse race in the seventies, and as far as I was aware the Atlanteans still compared well against their Daimler Fleetline competitors (we had large numbers of both up in the North East) and Bristol VRs.

British Leyland and their Buses are long gone (yes Ok there are former remnants of it in Volvo Buses and Optare etc) but the railway is still lumbered with this crap

Trains are intended to have a far longer service life than a typical bus, so that’s hardly noteworthy. With the modifications undertaken when they were converted to 153s, I don’t think that the Leyland Sprinters are that bad a train – Just not nearly as good as their class 156 equivalents.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The problem with the 153s is the seat pitch, but that was an attempt to maximise capacity. The worst 153s are the ones Arriva Trains Northern refurbished with Richmond seats. The 155s are a little bit better.

Both types of train are better than Pacers though; they have bogies for one thing.

As for Leyland, some of their products were good (Olympian and National) and some were not (Titan and Lynx).

 

[BestWestern]

The problem with the 153s is the seat pitch, but that was an attempt to maximise capacity. The worst 153s are the ones Arriva Trains Northern refurbished with Richmond seats. The 155s are a little bit better.

Both types of train are better than Pacers though; they have bogies for one thing.

As for Leyland, some of their products were good (Olympian and National) and some were not (Titan and Lynx).

Though the Titan (I'm assuming you mean the latter incarnation, not the very successful PD series?!) was significantly better than it's Daimler predocessor, the unloved DMS. Daimler's Roadliner of the same period was equally unpopular. British Leyland certainly spread its curse over the Leyland bus arm, but arguably they still did pretty well - several thousand Nationals were produced and made it one of the most successful British bus designs ever sold. It was also the first to be produced on a 'car style' production line, although that aspect of the project never achieved its expected potential. Again, the Olympian, Leopard, Atlantean etc all speak for themselves (the Olympian was initially developed as a Bristol product of course). The old school 'pecking order' always seemed to be AEC & Bristol, highly regarded for their rugged longevity (especially the Bristol/ECW combination), then Leyland with their perhaps more forward looking products at times, then everything else behind it. Now of course it all seems pretty much the same!

 

[fgwrich]

FGW has fitted new seat cushions on their 153s that use Richmond seating, which boosts you up a couple of inches and now the backs of the seat are much more comfortable!

Still the same then, can't remember the seat pitch problem it's too long ago now, and we don't see them south of Manchester these days ofcourse, but don't mind the Chapman seats at all. Regarding the FGW 153s, although they look smart and they keep them in nice order (Northern take note) the seats on these also lack legroom, and the backs are just too bolt upright for me! Was interesting what Rich mentioned about the 153s that received the 158 seats, forgot about that, agree with everything said though.

Indeed, FGW Certainly show how you can make a 153 look smart. Ok so the Richmond seating can be fairly controversial - I prefer them to the Chapman seats (as per 153329/369 - Wessex Refurb, 361 - FNW, 325/333 LM) but they're good for the jobs they do in FGW land which are mostly strengthening other services, and seem to do well on the branches of Devon & Cornwall. I'd happily take a 153 up to Barnstaple than a 143.

I think the engine noise is less noticeable on the FGW units than Northern because of the use of carpet in the FGW fleet over Lino in the Northern. That and it would depend on how 'thrashed' the unit has been over the years?

As for Northern Rail's fleet, I don't think most of the panels have been repainted since the fleet was new hence the 'buff' coloured panels appearing from what once was cream. Same for the LM Fleet. Although the Northern 155s do still retain the British Leyland moulding in the panels right above the doors.

Though the Titan (I'm assuming you mean the latter incarnation, not the very successful PD series?!) was significantly better than it's Daimler predocessor, the unloved DMS. Daimler's Roadliner of the same period was equally unpopular. British Leyland certainly spread its curse over the Leyland bus arm, but arguably they still did pretty well - several thousand Nationals were produced and made it one of the most successful British bus designs ever sold. It was also the first to be produced on a 'car style' production line, although that aspect of the project never achieved its expected potential. Again, the Olympian, Leopard, Atlantean etc all speak for themselves (the Olympian was initially developed as a Bristol product of course). The old school 'pecking order' always seemed to be AEC & Bristol, highly regarded for their rugged longevity (especially the Bristol/ECW combination), then Leyland with their perhaps more forward looking products at times, then everything else behind it. Now of course it all seems pretty much the same!

Aye, you can't beat a good Bristol / ECW! Rugged till the end.

 

[anthony263]

Ouch....

Thanks I couldn't remember which unit it was but that shot of 153353 does illustrate the problem concerning the body sage on these units