The thing is, I am not sure that acceptable. The public sinks a great deal of public money into the railways - and rightly so as it can be a very efficient means of transport - which means closing it just because quite a few taxpayers wish to use the service isn't really acceptable. Moreover, it is totally unnecessary when increased staffing would enable effective crowd control and a little flexibility from the railway might even mean the opportunity for more and/or longer trains.
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Lewes station not served during bonfire night
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The problem isn't overcrowding on the railway, it is overcrowding in Lewes. Longer trains would make that worse. The point is explicitly to make it harder for people to get to Lewes to add to those crowds.
The railway is acting in the interests (indeed instruction) of those seeking to manage that overcrowding and indeed those attending the event from Lewes itself.
See below (my bold)
https://www.visitlewes.co.uk/information/lewes-bonfire
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The railway isn’t closing, just a few stations, and it is well publicised in advance. If the local authorities including the emergency services are requesting that the railway not serve those stations the railway can’t very well just ignore it.
Nobody is willing to pay for “increased staffing”, and the crowding concerns aren’t limited to the railway - hence the desire to prevent potentially thousands of people arriving on trains. Longer trains and more of them would make the problems worse.
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And yet at other times Lewes actively encourages tourism at other times. Perhaps it is more about sustaining a controversial event - politely described as "outdated and chaotic" - which perhaps doesn't stand scrutiny to the broader community.
The railway is a national transport service that shouldn't pander to local agendas, especially not ones based on such dubious principles.
Of course it encourages tourism at other times. It is an attractive place to visit with narrow streets and an interesting townscape.
The point that is missed here is that the tradition of Lewes bonfire night is only safe to continue of it is restricted to locals. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that if the emergency services and authorities have dictated that that is the only way it will be allowed to happen.
The railway is still running through Lewes and fulfilling its role as a national transport service, just not stopping there because there is a local event which means that Lewes (the town, not just the station) is closed to people who don't live there on safety grounds.
So you actually are saying that, in your view, the railway should disregard the advice of the authorities and the emergency services. Thankfully that won’t be happening!
If there are agendas involved - and I don’t see any evidence of that here given the known issues at the Lewes bonfire - then those should to be challenged at a political level. It is not for the railway to disregard safety advice for political reasons.
I think the other poster is actually saying that Lewes Bonfire Night should be cancelled because it means the trains can't stop.
However, the action of the railway given the bonfire night is happening is clearly the right one.
Oxfordblues
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It's great fun. The "NO POPERY" banner is politically-incorrect, but as a Roman Catholic I enjoy the irony.
I prefer the “I’ve bought a house near the railway and want to know who to complain to about something.” Or other such versions of.
It's all fine and well saying the railway should serve Lewes during this event - but its less that the railway can't cope and more that Lewes as a whole can't cope. You could stop all the trains in the world if you so wished - but its what happens after they leave the station is the issue.
I'm normally quite critical of rail operators saying they could only cope with x number of passengers, so they'll just not bother at all, but short of rebuilding Lewes to accommodate the event (obviously tongue-in-cheek) or just not running the event, there isn't a lot that the railway can do.
I'm normally quite critical of rail operators saying they could only cope with x number of passengers, so they'll just not bother at all, but short of rebuilding Lewes to accommodate the event (obviously tongue-in-cheek) or just not running the event, there isn't a lot that the railway can do.
Turtle
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Reminds me of the English fella who was working in Germany and was invited for Christmas lunch by some colleagues. He asked how he could get there as he had no car. They looked at him strangely and said just take the train. Whether this still applies with DB's current troubles I don't know.
I recollect London Transport running buses until about 16:00 on Christmas Day in the late 1950s and Southern were running some Boxing Day services recently. Can't say what the situation has been in recent years.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Though curiously not Brockham, which is well served by public transport including special bus services and is a great experience!
Peregrine 4903
Established Member
Southern and London Overground run a limited Boxing Day service.
Brockham is an event in relatively open area, not a narrow historic streetscape, which has the scope to invite people from afar. As you say, it is served by commercially run public transport, albeit by Ensignbus, complete with the use of tickets for intended for Thurrock.
ExRes
Established Member
Nail hit squarely on the head
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Certainly. My point was simply that if one wants a traditional Sussex bonfire experience there are options to do so without making things hard for policing at Lewes.
I wonder do they also ask hotels to close?
renegademaster
Established Member
I wonder if part of the police logic in Lewes and Edenbridge is trying to stop people from Croydon who they'll think will be more troublesome coming down.
It is trying to stop people from anywhere, not just Croydon.
renegademaster
Established Member
But Croydon is somewhere nearby train wise that has a stereotype of antisocial behavior. Theirs huge car parks for people that can drive in for those fairs, but it's a different demographic. Not saying that this kind of prejudice is justified but when I learnt a few years back about how Edenbridge station is shut it was the first thought that came into my mind
We
Given that the "No Popery" banner is a reference to the Lewes Martyrs and the Catholic Churches policy of burning Protestants alive at the stake during the English Reformation I'm not sure it can be described as politically incorrect.
In future I would suggest going to the Hastings one. Don't think there's any restrictions for that one.
When I've been as part of (old) lads weekend aways, we have stayed at the White Rock Hotel, which is where the procession starts.
When I've been as part of (old) lads weekend aways, we have stayed at the White Rock Hotel, which is where the procession starts.
There are a grand total of two hotels in Lewes so really they make very little difference to the numbers attending.
I think closing stations which are 2.5 miles away is overkill however, I can’t see many people walking that in the dark.
Deepgreen
Established Member
Yes, and that highlights the different approaches taken to road and rail - roads are a free-for-all by comparison and people are pretty much left to make their own decisions, because the outcome is unlikely to lead to litigation, penalties, etc., when things go wrong, unlike on the railway.
I haven't been for a few years now but one of the main parking areas for this side of Lewes was around Ringmer College that must be around 3 miles from the centre of Lewes and there were literally hundreds of people walking along the unlit road.
My freinds resident in Germany have often told me that the evening of Christmas Eve is the big day for them.
Yes, the restrictions started in 2016 - specifically, there was an RMT strike (as part of the dispute about guards becoming On-Board Supervisors) that affected Southern on Saturday 5th November 2016. As a result, Southern were unable to run any additional services to Lewes (in part, I think, because they would have needed to use the 313s to provide the additional trains, which required guards to operate, unlike the 377s).
As a result of that, Sussex Police requested the closure of Lewes and surrounding stations. I believe the logic was similar to that as to why Brighton was not served at all over Pride weekend in 2023: if Southern don't have enough capacity available to get people home, they shouldn't risk stranding people there and therefore shouldn't run any trains there at all. Whether or not you agree with that argument is another matter, but with a strike on and a limited service running, it made sense in 2016.
The trouble is, for Lewes Bonfire in 2016, it worked too well; rather than an event that was, in some ways, bordering on unsafe with the sheer volume of crowds (especially from Brighton), the station closures meant that it became a bit more of a local event for Lewes that was more manageable (notwithstanding the issues of trying to get people home at the end of the night). Indeed, this thread from 2016 specifically mentions that authorities had been looking for ways to reduce attendance for years.
As a result, every year since then (excluding 2020 which had no bonfires), the same closures have been in effect on Bonfire Night, despite the original justification no longer applying.
Mcr Warrior
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Isn't it the case this year that provided you've gotten to Lewes by 5 p.m., which is around the time that the main Bonfire Night events start there, you can actually get there by train, just that you're not going to be returning anywhere by rail afterwards.
Yes, that's true, though the cut-off time is different from year to year: in 2016 the trains ceased to call at Lewes (and surrounding stations) at 12 noon, probably in part because Bonfire Night fell on a Saturday and would have been particularly busy. Bonfire Night was a Saturday again in 2017 (Lewes do their celebrations on 4th November when the 5th is a Sunday) and I think that had a 12 noon cut-off as well. I'm pretty sure it switched to a 5pm cut-off in 2018 once the 5th fell on a weekday again.
The next times it fell on a Saturday were 2022 and 2023: in 2022 I think no trains ran all day due to RMT strikes (although maybe the strikes were called off the night before?), and in 2023 the trains ceased to call from 3pm onwards according to The Argus.
bramling
Veteran Member
It seems the issue isn’t what the railway is doing, but whether it’s acceptable for there to be an event which is clearly the cause of significant disruption.
However if the majority of locals are happy with that situation, then that’s their prerogative. It isn’t like the train service through the area is being suspended to the detriment of everywhere else on the line, merely that Lewes and a couple of other relatively minor locations aren’t being served for a period of time.
Personally, as someone who isn’t a great fan of these sorts of big events, if I were a local I’d be peeved about it. But it does seem the event is popular, so clearly plenty of people are quite happy with the situation.
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