Lewes derailment: how will the train be recovered?

[M60lad]

Obviously with part of the train on its side it could need a crane to move it, so where is the nearest crane, and where would it come from and considering the location of the incident is it easy for a crane to get to the location?

 

[mrblws]

Obviously with part of the train on its side it could need a crane to move it, so where is the nearest crane and where would it come from and considering the location of the incident is it easy for a crane to get to the location?

As someone who lives nearby, I would say it's not at all easy to get a crane to that site, unless they take it by rail on the up line. The nearest road is about 500 yards away, but it's reachable only by steep and narrow farm tracks. I think the down line will be shut for some time.

 

[JonathanH]

As someone who lives nearby, I would say it's not at all easy to get a crane to that site, unless they take it by rail on the up line. The nearest road is about 500 yards away, but it's reachable only by steep and narrow farm tracks. I think the down line will be shut for some time.

As we saw with the Bedford incident, it is possible to build a landing pad for a crane and access roads and then restore the fields back to normal afterwards. The carriages are likely to have to be removed by road in any case.

 

[bramling]

Not to sure where to post this so please move it to the relevant location if possible, but obviously with part of the train on its side it could need a crane to move it, so where is the nearest crane and where would it come from and considering the location of the incident is it easy for a crane to get to the location?

If it’s where I think it is, I have a bit of local knowledge as a relative used to live nearby, so I have walked past the site.

The down side of the railway is surrounded by somewhat marshy field (though may not be too bad at the moment!), and hemmed in by the River Ouse. It wouldn’t be readily easy to bring plant in this way.

The up side is more accessible, with the nearby housing estate a relatively short distance away (and IIRC not much height difference). All the roads are relatively narrow residential ones however.

It’s certainly not a particularly remote location, but equally it’s not right alongside a convenient major road or anything like that.

 

[Amos390]

Could this be another calling for a rail-crane again (like was used in Bedford) or will normal road cranes manage with this one?

 

[Mike Machin]

Even if an access road were to be built across the adjacent fields, access to the fields would be exceptionally difficult in vehicles larger than a normal tractor and trailer or small lorry.

A rail-mounted crane could be used perhaps, or maybe it would be easier to cut-up the three affected coaches on-site and remove as small items of scrap?

 

[TastyMaltesers]

One difference between this and Bedford is the lack of overhead wires here.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

All the bogies appear attached to their carriages so it maybe possible to rerail them and move them to a location where easier road cranage could be arranged.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Even if an access road were to be built across the adjacent fields, access to the fields would be exceptionally difficult in vehicles larger than a normal tractor and trailer or small lorry.

A rail-mounted crane could be used perhaps, or maybe it would be easier to cut-up the three affected coaches on-site and remove as small items of scrap?

Could the three toppled carriages not be lifted back onto the rails, one by one, and then dragged away on the 'Up' line, for removal (by road?) albeit from a much easier to access lineside location?

 

[Mike Machin]

Could the three toppled carriages not be lifted back onto the rails, one by one, and then dragged away on the 'Up' line, for removal (by road?) albeit from a much easier to access lineside location?

Certainly I would imagine they could be utilising rail-mounted cranes. It probably wouldn’t be absolutely impossible to access with large road cranes, but to get on site requires negotiating very twisty narrow tree-lined lanes on one side, or very narrow residential roads through a modern housing development on the other.

Using a couple of the biggest rail-mounted cranes after separating into I dividual coaches could be an option, but I would imagine the line where the derailment occurred would need to be repaired first to provide a line for the coaches to be lifted on to.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Certainly I would imagine they could be utilising rail-mounted cranes. It probably wouldn’t be absolutely impossible to access with large road cranes, but to get on site requires negotiating very twisty narrow tree-lined lanes on one side, or very narrow residential roads through a modern housing development on the other.

Using a couple of the biggest rail-mounted cranes after separating into I dividual coaches could be an option, but I would imagine the line where the derailment occurred would need to be repaired first to provide a line for the coaches to be lifted on to.

They can remove the front unit and maybe the leading coach with a loco. Agree they would need to do something with down road as the Kirow cranes haven't got a huge reach. Mind you be surprised what they can do with inflatable bags and hausers to get them upright.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Any updates as to the recovery process yet?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Any updates as to the recovery process yet?

Ive posted the below on the Lewes derailment page maybe better on here - moderators?

New update from NR

https://www.networkrailmediacentre....days-as-major-train-recovery-operation-begins

The railway between Lewes and Haywards Heath will remain closed for at least another ten days while teams recover the derailed train and begin repairs to the railway.
The Rail Accident and Investigation Branch (RAIB) completed its work on site on Saturday and has now handed the site back to Network Rail. RAIB’s investigation into the derailment continues.

A complex recovery operation is now under way. Three carriages derailed and slid part-way down the embankment. These will need to be carefully lifted away by crane.

The location makes this particularly difficult. The railway is close to a river, in a Site of Special Scientific Interest, and restricted road access is only via a residential area. As much specialist equipment as possible is being brought to the site by rail given the challenges of access by road.

Engineers are now preparing the site for two 125-tonne rail-mounted cranes, among the largest cranes available for use on the railway. Before lifting can begin, teams must make sure the ground and railway are stable and strong enough to safely support the cranes and the weight of the carriages.

So this suggests they are using Kirow cranes similar to Elstow and the coaches will be moved somewhere else if they cant be moved by rail.

 

[CR165022]

Did the front unit even come off the rails at all?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Did the front unit even come off the rails at all?

From the various pictures posted it looks not but of course they focus on the derailed vehicles. If any are they should be easier enough to reail with jacks and then they can be hauled away via Lewes.

Id also say they will need to replace the down line track for the Kirows to be able to reach the coaches but would imagine they will attempt to get them more vertical maybe with airbags first.

Edit: video update from NR Route Director only confirms the Kirow cranes will be used as their earlier news release above.

https://x.com/networkrail/status/2089033154682073132

 

[Mike Machin]

Obviously removal of the three coaches is not possible by road, so if the bogies/wheels/running gear is too far damaged to allow the vehicles to be hauled away, I suppose wheelskates will be used to allow the stock to be taken to a suitable location where the coaches can be loaded onto road transport?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Obviously removal of the three coaches is not possible by road, so if the bogies/wheels/running gear is too far damaged to allow the vehicles to be hauled away, I suppose wheelskates will be used to allow the stock to be taken to a suitable location where the coaches can be loaded onto road transport?

The bogies haven't detached from any of the vehicles so there's good probability they can at least move them by rail to a nearby location to remove them by road.

 

[liam456]

Did the front unit even come off the rails at all?

No, the rearmost bogie of the first carriage of the second unit was derailed. Everything 'forward' of that never left the rails. I don't know whether the front unit can be driven away however.

 

[NSEWonderer]

No, the rearmost bogie of the first carriage of the second unit was derailed. Everything 'forward' of that never left the rails. I don't know whether the front unit can be driven away however.

Not with the juice off, I'd suspect a loco would be able to haul it away

 

[JonathanH]

Not with the juice off, I'd suspect a loco would be able to haul it away

If 387172 is undamaged then getting another 387 to couple up to it seems easier than going to the effort of getting a locomotive to the area, but note that there may need to be considerations about power supply.

Apparently this is the rescue train - 66845 and 66553 with crane wagons - https://www.facebook.com/share/p/19Xz8uEyrJ/

 

[zwk500]

If 387172 is undamaged then getting another 387 to couple up to it seems easier than going to the effort of getting a locomotive to the area, but note that there may need to be considerations about power supply.

If they wait until the juice is back on the 387172 is going to have stone cold dead batteries. I'd presume that after something like that it needs to go to a depot first before it can power back on, so any rescue is presumably hauling it dead in tow. Can a 387 rescue another 387 if it's completely dead?

I wouldn't have thought getting a loco on to the train would be too difficult - after all there's regular Class 66 workings to Newhaven. Getting it back to the depot might be fiddly though, but that'd be the same if it was dead hauled by another 387 with the cab inoperable.

 

[SECR 65]

To get 387172 back to Lovers Walk Depot in Brighton (probably the most likely recovery location), the consist will have to reverse at some point.

Given which end of the incident train 172 was, one would presume the unit will move via Lewes.

Is it possible to propel a unit with a diesel loco for a short distance?

I think they would have to run through Lewes platform 1 and then propel into platform 5 (this move would block the Lewes-Seaford/Eastbourne running line for a short while). Then, the loco would need to run round (presumably via platform 4) to haul the train on to Brighton. From there, the unit could be propelled into Lovers Walk Depot.

 

[JonathanH]

Given which end of the incident train 172 was, one would presume the unit will move via Lewes.

Can it not be taken to Eastbourne for reversal?

 

[SECR 65]

Can it not be taken to Eastbourne for reversal?

I suppose it could do, yes. Not sure if there's a run round loop at Eastbourne or not. Would save the risk of failing on the running line. Maybe a second loco could be attached there.

 

[Snow1964]

Using a couple of the biggest rail-mounted cranes after separating into I dividual coaches could be an option, but I would imagine the line where the derailment occurred would need to be repaired first to provide a line for the coaches to be lifted on to.

The track would just need replacing initially, doesn't really need to be fully realigned to move individual coaches placed on it at walking speed.

I suspect a small road-raider could tow each coach to a suitable location to be moved to a road transporter

Obviously they are EMU vehicles, so only about third of the weight of a locomotive, which hopefully means couple of propped rail cranes can lift them. And to some extent the initial move is more a pull at the top to rotate them upright than a deadweight lift.

 

[zwk500]

Is it possible to propel a unit with a diesel loco for a short distance?

In theory yes, but depends if the Rulebook can be satisfied when 387172 is completely dead.

I think they would have to run through Lewes platform 1 and then propel into platform 5 (this move would block the Lewes-Seaford/Eastbourne running line for a short while). Then, the loco would need to run round (presumably via platform 4) to haul the train on to Brighton. From there, the unit could be propelled into Lovers Walk Depot.

This would be the shortest way, although it's possible that they want to recover the unit to Selhurst, so it could be that the unit is dragged down to Newhaven or Eastbourne and then returned when the Up London has been reopened.

I suppose it could do, yes. Not sure if there's a run round loop at Eastbourne or not. Would save the risk of failing on the running line. Maybe a second loco could be attached there.

There's a runround loop opposite Platform 1, I'm fairly sure, but it needs a Ground frame operating to use it.

 

[Snow1964]

In theory yes, but depends if the Rulebook can be satisfied when 387172 is completely dead.

This would be the shortest way, although it's possible that they want to recover the unit to Selhurst, so it could be that the unit is dragged down to Newhaven or Eastbourne and then returned when the Up London has been reopened.

There's a runround loop opposite Platform 1, I'm fairly sure, but it needs a Ground frame operating to use it.

If it is a diesel loco, isn't there also a run round at Newhaven Marine (if it is still there). I know it hasn't been used for a long while, but last time I was there (which admittedly was few years ago) track had been left in situ.

 

[zwk500]

If it is a diesel loco, isn't there also a run round at Newhaven Marine (if it is still there). I know it hasn't been used for a long while, but last time I was there (which admittedly was few years ago) track had been left in situ.

The old layout was removed in the resignalling. There is a runround in the terminal (otherwise the freight wouldn't be able to do much) but it's not very long as the freight is loaded in sections so I think the shunting there is a bit 'involved'. Google Maps suggests it might be long enough to runround a 4-car unit.

The simplest option if it was recovered by loco would be to take the unit down to Eastbourne, where a fitter could attend in the sidings without too much bother, and then if it still needed hauling back you can wait until the Keymer branch is open again to haul the unit directly to Selhurst. (easier than propelling the unit off Brighton station into the Carriage Road).

 

[Snow1964]

Network Rail have issued a video.

So far they have been building a large vehicle compound / car park (couldn't they use a minibus shuttle from nearby existing parking area, do their staff not walk anywhere ?) rather than build a short term temporary compound

Also built a hard standing base for cranes, and doing some ecology work. They have also temporarily rerouted some signal cables.

Doesn't look like they have actually done any recovery so far of the toppled vehicles, and video suggests they still haven't got a clue when line might reopen

 

[zwk500]

So far they have been building a large vehicle compound / car park (couldn't they use a minibus shuttle from nearby existing parking area, do their staff not walk anywhere ?) rather than build a short term temporary compound

There isn't any nearby existing parking area with any meaningful capacity that could be turned over to the recover operation, and to take space out of a car park in Lewes would mean that all those cars are travelling into the town to park, and pushing parking out on to surrounding streets. Providing on-site parking that means workers don't have to drive through Lewes itself is by far the best option for both the work and the residents of the area.