level crossings

[GB]

And seeing as the public cannot use crossings very well, why should I up/down them between trains. That just increases the risk of someone getting trapped, or similar mishap!

Indeed, and in the case of manual gates, you are putting your life in their hands. I learned very early on that its just not worth the time or effort to let a couple of cars through at a time.

 

[button_boxer]

On some days the train is allowed to enter the platform under a red signal aspect before the barriers are lowered, but this is, sadly, rare.

The issue is what happens if the train overshoots the starter signal for any reason (low adhesion, driver error, etc.). If the level crossing is within the overlap distance then the barriers need to be down just in case.

 

[Deepgreen]

The issue is what happens if the train overshoots the starter signal for any reason (low adhesion, driver error, etc.). If the level crossing is within the overlap distance then the barriers need to be down just in case.

But this is my point; why (in dry conditions) can the crossing (Betchworth in this case) be closed as late as when the train has arrived at the platform on some days, but, on other occasions, is closed (again in dry conditions) several minutes before the train is even in sight - in both cases under a red starting signal and with no train coming the other way. As I have already said in this thread, it has been shown many times that it CAN be done, but it just ISN'T done often enough. BTW, Reigate-bound stopping trains arriving at Betchworth always approach incredibly cautiously (dry or wet), despite being on a 1 in 140 up gradient and even when under a green aspect. If there is perceived to be a significant risk of over-running a red starter, why can the crossing be left open on some days and not on others, in similar conditions?

The simple point is, slick operation can be done without safety compromises of any kind, but just isn't done enough of the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed, and in the case of manual gates, you are putting your life in their hands. I learned very early on that its just not worth the time or effort to let a couple of cars through at a time.

No manual gates at Betchworth. BTW, I enjoyed your California rail photos!

 

[GB]

As I have already said in this thread, it has been shown many times that it CAN be done, but it just ISN'T done often enough.

Of course just because it can be done, doesn't mean by the letter of the law (ok rule) that it is the correct way to do it.

I was told several times by management that under no circumstances should you delay the closure of the crossing if you get the call for a train.

No manual gates at Betchworth. BTW, I enjoyed your California rail photos!

Thanks

 

[Llanigraham]

Why would anyone, anywhere, have to wait for at least four minutes for a train to pass?! No wonder more and more road users jump the lights if this is the expectation!

Because that is the way the manual signalling system has to work at my Box. When and if my Box is removed I expect the system will change but until then that is the way it works.
If I see someone jumping the lights then they WILL be reported!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have read it all now: people "cannot use level crossings very well", so let's make them even more frustrating to use for road users (vehicles and pedestrians) by leaving them closed between widely-spaced trains, thereby increasing risk-taking still further! To extend that logic to an unworkable extent - just leave them closed all the time on the basis that someone could become trapped. Signallers are the interface between the railway and the 'rest of the world' and, as such, need to take all crossing users' requirements into account (and, yes, speaking as a railwayman, and as I have already said, with the railway taking reasonable precedent). Part of the problem is, of course, that so few crossings are now controlled locally and therefore efficiently. You can't beat a 'box next to its crossing for slick operation.

Four minutes is a long time for a train to pass - try timing it sitting where you are and imagine you are waiting to cross (as in the case of Betchworth, to catch that very train, which has to stop before the crossing in any case!). At Betchworth, as with several other locations I know well (Ashtead being the worst) it seems as if the signallers do not want to rely on the installed signalling system to provide safety but enforce their own local and personal regimes. It is this huge variation in operating styles at the same location that is so frustrating.

Be assured people CANNOT use level crossings properly!! We see people breaking the Law every day, and they deserve the whole weight of the Law being brought down on themselves.

You might be a railwayman but sorry, you obviously know very little about how level crossings work and the duties of the signallers, especially in AB areas. Perhaps before you criticise us you need to do some research.

For information I stand by the LX pedestal and overlook my crossing, but I still have to pull levers once the barriers are down.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The three level crossings I know of that have exceptionally long down times are Chilworth station, Ash station & Camberley station.

Chilworth you can sit there for over 5 minutes waiting for the Gatwick or Redhill to pass, Ash can be just as long as Chilworth, but that's because of the sequence of trains, Ascot - Reading - Reading - Guildford at certain times of day.

Camberley the barriers are lowered about 4' before the departure of the up train & just after the down train has left Bagshot, about 5' and it can be longer in the evening when you get a couple of 8 cars and a stopper cross at Camberley.

It should be pointed out that BTP do, do checks with their vans, we have forms for crossing abuse and if we fill in one, they will start doing checks and start doing £100 tickets + between 3 & 6 pts on the licence. Two crossings which were being abused by the locals have since had enforcement cameras fitted to them.

 

[Tomnick]

A signaller controlling level crossings has a responsibility for balancing rail and road operations. Every time road users are held for unnecessarily long periods when the railway signalling would perfectly safely permit otherwise, they are more and more likely to 'jump the lights' next time.

I do very much agree with the latter part of this, and stand by my earlier post - I very much believe that excessively long closure times do, over time, increase the likelihood of misuse. Yes, it's illegal to jump the red lights, and I've reported more than a few for doing so - but I consider it far more productive to try to keep them on side in the first place, so that they're perhaps less likely to do so!

I also know that different signalmen work crossings in slightly different ways, in terms of the time at which they start the sequence where (as in the majority of cases) this isn't specified - this is quite reasonable too, where the sequence is started x minutes after receiving 'train entering section' where x varies depending upon the type of train and that individual signalman's style. Workload plays a part too - sometimes it's necessary to get the barriers down sooner than normal, because you know that you're going to be busy at the other end of the panel, or on the phone to go through the details for a possession for example, and you don't want to be distracted and cause a delay as a result.

I'll usually raise them briefly if I can, especially at our busiest crossing right in the middle of a town, to try and clear at least some of the traffic - sometimes, to show their gratitude, they'll then end up queued back over the crossing and prevent me from lowering them when I need to. The motorists who get stopped when the barriers go down again seem to get even angrier if they've seen them go up and back down before they've had chance to get across - ignoring the fact that doing so has at least cleared some of the traffic, thus easing their passage when the second train's passed. I can see, then, why so many are reluctant to go for a quick 'swing'!

 

[carriageline]

Deepgreen, request a visit to one (or as many as you can) of the boxes that control the barriers. You will see why they have to be down for so long. As said, we are here to run trains so they get precedent (unless it's a stopper, I then generally give a yellow into the station, with sequence started as they approach it with the barriers down and starter cleared just as they are pulling in), but as you say you, you have to have some compromise if they will be done a while. But as the general public can be very idiotic it isn't always worth putting them up for a minute as someone will jump them and even end up trapped, then the barriers will have to come up again, then that starts to cause delays. I also report every vehicle that jumps the lights, with the reg number.

If you did visit, You will also be surprised sometimes how much else we have to deal with, so don't always have time to stick the barriers up for a few minutes. That also makes people a lot more likely to jump lights, as they have already been stopped by them and don't want to be stopped again.

 

[High Dyke]

Having had one or two friends comment about crossing delays i asked them once to time how long they would be waiting at a level crossing on the ECML, when only 1 train passes. Their assumption of time delay was anywhere "up to 10 - 15 minutes" so how surprised were they when they found out the average delay was about 3 minutes.

I've worked crossings on the ECML and with trains travelling at 2 miles a minute (in some places) it doesn't take long for a 'fast train' to be signal checked if you are slow lowering barriers and clearing signals - something that doesn't go down too well with the TOCs and management.

Like Tomnick if i can get a 'quick swing' to allow road traffic / pedestrians to pass then i do, but sometimes there just isn't time. For example the location i'm at currently is on a busy main road out of town. It isn't unknown for traffic to back up onto the crossing in both directions, and no the crossing doen't have a yellow box marking on it - more's the pity...

 

[PermitToTravel]

Would it help if they changed the rules so that a crossing could be reopened once a train had safely and correctly stopped at a platform, and closed again before the train was ready to depart?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Would it help if they changed the rules so that a crossing could be reopened once a train had safely and correctly stopped at a platform, and closed again before the train was ready to depart?

I don't really see the point in this especially if the dwell time of the train is very short.

 

[MarkyT]

The issue is what happens if the train overshoots the starter signal for any reason (low adhesion, driver error, etc.). If the level crossing is within the overlap distance then the barriers need to be down just in case.

Whilst it's good practice to place protecting signals overlap clear of level crossings, at stations in particular this is often not possible. A crossing open to road traffic does NOT constitute a blocked overlap in general terms however, so in theory a manually controlled crossing (barriers or gates) can be open to road traffic with a train approaching the protecting signal, as long as there is at least 50m between the signal and the near edge of the highway, and that distance can be relaxed to 25m at a station platform. However when engineers and operators get together to risk-analyse a particular site they may come to the conclusion that the particular SPAD risk may warrant a more restrictive arrangement. In some cases this may be a box instruction that the crossing must be closed before an approaching train arrives. At other sites a new interlocking design might enforce this, requiring the crossing closed before a route can be set towards the protecting signal. The latter may not be possible in long two aspect signalling areas however as the closed time could be excessively long. One method that has been used in these circumstances is to place the protecting signal signal the 'wrong side' of a platform, overlap clear of the crossing, so a train stopping at the station is already in the signal section containing the crossing, which must therefore be closed to road. Whilst that might not be too bad a delay for a typical rural stop in normal operation, there is a serious problem if the train's subsequent departure is prevented by an train failure or other operating incident as there is no way the signaller can reset the route the train is already part way through to release the crossing and hence reopen the road. Jams all round until a MOM or signalling technician arrives by road (if they can get their cars anywhere near the trouble!)

 

[Jonny]

Don't forget the level crossing the user has to power themselves!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRQt_PMhBXY

Does that form of level crossing have any kind of interlock?

 

[Tomnick]

Does that form of level crossing have any kind of interlock?

No - the barriers effectively replace the hand-worked gates usually found at crossings with R/G warning lights, meaning that the user only has to cross the line once rather than five times, getting them clear of the crossing quicker and reducing the risk overall.

 

[stevefromdonny]

I have no idea how these crossings work but they have both been recently upgraded to LED wigwags, full barriers, cctv crossings. All the lines around have power signals.

Bentley crossing sits on the doncaster to Wakefield line. 2 tracks and alongside a station. None of the stoppers have dwell times longer than 45 seconds. The barriers come down a good 3 minutes in advance (i think the trigger is very close to doncaster station). Very frustrating to be sat there for 3 minutes then a pacer crawls into the station, stops for a minute then trundles on its way before the crossings open.

Arksey crossing is on the ecml slightly further north from Doncaster station on 2 tracks. Was sat there the other day for about 4 minutes for a gbrf towing 23 coal wagons At about 50mph.

With these delays on such busy lines isnt there a way to reduce them? Quite often you can be held for 5 trains at a time at both. I always thought these automatic crossings operated without giving any signals to trains. Is this not the case? Does someone monitor the cctv to check the crossing and then give the trains a green? Couldn't trains be speed monitored at the cut in point and an appropriate delay set?

 

[Llanigraham]

Simplistically.
If they are half barriered then they are totally automatic, with no signals.
If they are full barriered then they are either monitored directly, by CCTV or by proximity radar and all are signal protected.
CCTV is monitored and a "crossing clear" button has to be pressed to activate the signals.
Not that I know of.

 

[Tomnick]

I have no idea how these crossings work but they have both been recently upgraded to LED wigwags, full barriers, cctv crossings. All the lines around have power signals.

Bentley crossing sits on the doncaster to Wakefield line. 2 tracks and alongside a station. None of the stoppers have dwell times longer than 45 seconds. The barriers come down a good 3 minutes in advance (i think the trigger is very close to doncaster station). Very frustrating to be sat there for 3 minutes then a pacer crawls into the station, stops for a minute then trundles on its way before the crossings open.

Arksey crossing is on the ecml slightly further north from Doncaster station on 2 tracks. Was sat there the other day for about 4 minutes for a gbrf towing 23 coal wagons At about 50mph.

With these delays on such busy lines isnt there a way to reduce them? Quite often you can be held for 5 trains at a time at both. I always thought these automatic crossings operated without giving any signals to trains. Is this not the case? Does someone monitor the cctv to check the crossing and then give the trains a green? Couldn't trains be speed monitored at the cut in point and an appropriate delay set?

Both are MCB-CCTV crossings worked from Doncaster PSB - I don't think either have auto-lower, so there's no 'trigger' as such. The protecting signal at Bentley is, if I'm not mistaken, in rear of (i.e. before) the platform, so the barriers need to be down well before even a stopping train gets there - ideally, to avoid delaying the train (which in turn would probably mean that the barriers would be down for longer too!), before it gets to the third signal in rear of the crossing, which would otherwise be showing YY instead of G. Similarly at Arksey, the signals need to be cleared in time to avoid the driver reacting to cautionary aspects - but it obviously takes much longer for a 60mph freight train to get from that point.

 

[Tommy1581]

On the Tyne and Wear Metro, on the Boldon stretch, you can see the cars crossing the lines about 20 seconds away from the train, I can't understand of how Nexus/Network Rail have allowed that to happen, especially on a stretch of line which has 50mph running speed.

I do think that 10 seconds is very dangerous between barriers down and train on the crossing, 20 seconds is the closest that I've seen to that time.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I imagine that the cars you see at T minus 10 seconds have run a red light

 

[Tommy1581]

I imagine that the cars you see at T minus 10 seconds have run a red light

Possibly, I've only done that stretch once (as part of my NE Explorer ticket), so I'm not that used to the timings for the crossings, but you could also see the barriers lowering from a short distance as well.

 

[edwin_m]

With full barriers, I don't really see that the 10s is relevant. It would be just as safe if the train arrived 1s after the barriers went down, although that isn't possible because of the need to clear a signal so it's usually a lot longer than 10s anyway.

With half barriers the only thing that can happen during the 10s that affects safety is any vehicle/pedestrian that was on the crossing when the entry side barriers went down has a chance to move off, or the occupants to abandon a vehicle. Increasing this time would have only a very marginal benefit, though it might have saved a disabled person who was killed in this situation a year or so back as he couldn't get out quickly enough. However increasing the 10s would also make it more likely that drivers would zigzag round the half barriers, so on balance it would probably reduce safety.

 

[Tomnick]

On the Tyne and Wear Metro, on the Boldon stretch, you can see the cars crossing the lines about 20 seconds away from the train, I can't understand of how Nexus/Network Rail have allowed that to happen, especially on a stretch of line which has 50mph running speed.

I do think that 10 seconds is very dangerous between barriers down and train on the crossing, 20 seconds is the closest that I've seen to that time.

It's perfectly safe if used correctly though. It might be ten seconds (minimum) from barriers down to train passing, but it's 27 seconds from the first warning (steady amber light) to train passing, which is more than adequate! They (AHBs) can't be installed where there's any significant risk of traffic queuing back over the crossing, so that shouldn't be a problem. Indeed, if the closure time wasn't so short, there'd be a much greater risk of impatient motorists zig-zagging the barriers - see the investigation into the accident at Athelney AHB in the last couple of years, where the motorist waited less than two minutes before assuming that the crossing had failed.

 

[Deepgreen]

Because that is the way the manual signalling system has to work at my Box. When and if my Box is removed I expect the system will change but until then that is the way it works.
If I see someone jumping the lights then they WILL be reported!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Be assured people CANNOT use level crossings properly!! We see people breaking the Law every day, and they deserve the whole weight of the Law being brought down on themselves.

You might be a railwayman but sorry, you obviously know very little about how level crossings work and the duties of the signallers, especially in AB areas. Perhaps before you criticise us you need to do some research.

For information I stand by the LX pedestal and overlook my crossing, but I still have to pull levers once the barriers are down.

Fully agree SOME people cannot use crossings, and those who pose a danger should be dealt with. I know a fair bit about how crossings work (35 years in the 'business' and a father who was a signal engineer) but I don't claim to be an expert. What I DO know is that the vast variation in operating regimes (presumably from one individual signaller to another) at Betchworth crossing (which was the specific subject of my posting strand here) causes road users, some of whom are people trying to get to their train, to become very frustrated, which must inevitably lead to more and more mis-use of the crossing.

I'm certainly not criticising all signallers, only some (in my case, one or more at Reigate 'box).

 

[40129]

I remember the old gated crossing at Leaton (between Shrewsbury and Gobowen) where not only were the gates closed for what seemed like an eternity before the train came, but the signaller re-opened them until the train had passed the first signal after the crossing. IIRC in the up direction this was about 1/4 mile beyond the crossing

 

[plastictaffy]

I once got held at the ECML at Tallington for 5 trains - 3 up, 2 down. Was waiting about ten minutes. Of course, there, they are doing at least 100mph, so the delay is a long one there.

 

[GNER 91128]

I once got held at the ECML at Tallington for 5 trains - 3 up, 2 down. Was waiting about ten minutes. Of course, there, they are doing at least 100mph, so the delay is a long one there.

Ah you only had a short wait then.

 

[plastictaffy]

I suppose if you had a couple of ups and a couple of downs with a couple of freights somewhere in the mix, you could be held there at least twice that.

 

[Railsigns]

I have no idea how these crossings work but they have both been recently upgraded to LED wigwags, full barriers, cctv crossings. All the lines around have power signals.

Bentley crossing sits on the doncaster to Wakefield line. 2 tracks and alongside a station. None of the stoppers have dwell times longer than 45 seconds. The barriers come down a good 3 minutes in advance (i think the trigger is very close to doncaster station). Very frustrating to be sat there for 3 minutes then a pacer crawls into the station, stops for a minute then trundles on its way before the crossings open.

Arksey crossing is on the ecml slightly further north from Doncaster station on 2 tracks. Was sat there the other day for about 4 minutes for a gbrf towing 23 coal wagons At about 50mph.

With these delays on such busy lines isnt there a way to reduce them? Quite often you can be held for 5 trains at a time at both. I always thought these automatic crossings operated without giving any signals to trains. Is this not the case? Does someone monitor the cctv to check the crossing and then give the trains a green? Couldn't trains be speed monitored at the cut in point and an appropriate delay set?

These aren't automatic crossings.

 

[DJ_K666]

This is Shoreham-by-Sea 'B' crossing on the West Coastway line out of Brighton (B being the former signal box that once stood here). 6 trains in each direction per hour and you can be at these gates for up to 15 minutes.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.8...m4!1e1!3m2!1sj8xYoOG4xxl3h3laC5tnHQ!2e0?hl=en

 

[stevefromdonny]

So if I could just clarify something about the Bentley and Arksey crossings I mentioned earlier. If the barriers lower and something is stuck on the crossing would it therefore be possible for the crossing operator in the psb to give a danger to the oncoming train thus averting disaster? Would this be possible even for high speed trains going at line speed?