level crossings

[stevefromdonny]

There are several level crossings near where I live in doncaster. Having seen footage from YouTube I have a question. Who decides what delay is set up on a level crossing Before a train arrives? All the crossings around here seem to have very long delays (1 minute to 90 seconds). Some i have seen in other parts of the country come down 10 seconds before a train! Why is this? One reason i can think of is how busy the two routes are and balancing the risk and traffic management. But this seems to go against rail safety. Shouldnt all crossings be subject to the same safety standards?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

There are several level crossings near where I live in doncaster. Having seen footage from YouTube I have a question. Who decides what delay is set up on a level crossing Before a train arrives? All the crossings around here seem to have very long delays (1 minute to 90 seconds). Some i have seen in other parts of the country come down 10 seconds before a train! Why is this? One reason i can think of is how busy the two routes are and balancing the risk and traffic management. But this seems to go against rail safety. Shouldnt all crossings be subject to the same safety standards?

They all have standard minimum times from strike-in to barriers down, but that has to be set up for the fastest trains. Also, a second train striking in will cause the barriers to stay down, and so on.

The exact timings are constrained legally and are not influenced by cost, traffic or politics, though the continued presence of the level crossing might be!

If you have seen a crossing give only 10s warning time please ring Network Rail and report it.

 

[Railsigns]

The crucial point is that there are many different kinds of level crossings which might, at first sight, appear similar to one another but operate quite differently.

Generally speaking, the road closure time for automatic level crossings is much shorter than those which are manually controlled.

 

[Llanigraham]

10 seconds would be impossible on any type of crossing in the UK!

 

[DarloRich]

There are several level crossings near where I live in doncaster. Having seen footage from YouTube I have a question. Who decides what delay is set up on a level crossing Before a train arrives? All the crossings around here seem to have very long delays (1 minute to 90 seconds). Some i have seen in other parts of the country come down 10 seconds before a train! Why is this? One reason i can think of is how busy the two routes are and balancing the risk and traffic management. But this seems to go against rail safety. Shouldnt all crossings be subject to the same safety standards?

if it is 10 seconds you should report it. That isn't right. I dont think such a short time span should even be possible!

 

[PermitToTravel]

I guess the minimum time is on an AHB? What is it, out of interest? 15s?

 

[Searle]

In the recently uploaded video by Network Rail, there's a delay of just under 10 seconds by my count on the AHB in the first video.

 

[PermitToTravel]

There'll probably have been creative editing there to help them make their point - the last one contains the noise of an approaching train but there very obviously won't have been one without the other half of the barriers lowered.

 

[Searle]

I'd be impressed if they have, considering that the person is walking consistently throughout it, and it doesn't look edited at all (you can still see his feet walking below the passing train).

 

[PermitToTravel]

It'd still look like that if it had only been sped up, wouldn't it?

 

[Railsigns]

In the recently uploaded video by Network Rail, there's a delay of just under 10 seconds by my count on the AHB in the first video.

The warning sequence (minimum 27 seconds) begins with the amber light coming on, i.e. before the start of the video clip.

 

[Dr_Paul]

A few years back I waited for about three minutes on several occasions at the Manor Road crossing between Richmond and North Sheen on the Windsor line out of Waterloo. This was between the barriers coming down and the arrival of the train. After the first time, I timed my wait with my watch just to see how long it could be. More recently, the wait has been quite a bit less, no more than a minute. It is possible that trains were held for some reason at either Richmond or North Sheen, which could have delayed their arrival at the crossing.

 

[Stewart2887]

The two crossings in Steventon seem to close to traffic very early, but I guess line speed is high. Bad news if they are triggered by a freight coming off the loops from a stand at Wantage Road. I have stood waiting for six trains once, but someone I chatted to had stood waiting for eight once. I'd hate to live south of the line there, so much time wasted.

In contrast, I was held up at Bottesford once, and you can see the train before the barriers come down!

 

[steamybrian]

The crossing at Wye station in Kent is also closed to rail traffic very early several minutes before a train is due.
This crossing is unusual in that it is hand operated with "heritage" crossing gates which are locked by the operation of a ground frame.
Operated by a crossing keeper who also mans the ticket office.
3 trains per hour each way pass through or stop at the station.
Possibly the only location where High Speed class 395 Javelin trains pass over a level crossing with hand operated traditional crossing gates.

 

[tocguard]

Possibly the only location where High Speed class 395 Javelin trains pass over a level crossing with hand operated traditional crossing gates.

Well they don't exactly operate all over the country do they . . .

 

[causton]

Don't forget the level crossing the user has to power themselves!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRQt_PMhBXY

 

[carriageline]

I'm sorry OP, but 1 minute to 90 seconds is not what I would class as a very long time by any stretch of the imagination!!

End of the day, trains get priority over level crossings. My job is to run trains, not manage road traffic. So trains will get greens over crossings where possible.

Saying that though, I am careful and cautious when it comes to holding road users for a extended period of time. People make mistakes when they get impatient.

 

[dk1]

I guess the minimum time is on an AHB? What is it, out of interest? 15s?

Depends from what point? It can be as little as 11 seconds from the time the barriers are in the lowered position. At ABCL crossings the train driver gets the White flashing light (all clear) from the moment the barriers start to lower.

Back in the day I knew speed merchant drivers that liked to get to AHBs as the arms where still lowering

 

[The Snap]

According to Part 3 of NR/L2/SIG/11201/ Mod X10, in relation to AHBs:

The minimum warning time allowed at AHB crossings is 27 seconds.

Single lines require 27 seconds + equipment response time* + 1 sec for each 3m over 15m length

Double lines require 37 seconds (27 sec + 10 sec for ATC*), + equipment response time* + 1 sec for each 3m over 15m length

* - Equipment response time: for a relay controlled crossing this is normally 2 seconds. For an electronic interlocking, the maximum response time shall be either known or shall be worked out before the crossing is designed.
* - ATC: When a second train could approach and the second train has already struck in by the point the barriers would rise for the first train

NR/L2/SIG/11201 is the Signalling Design Handbook, and the 'X' Modules cover all types of level crossings.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The crossing at Wye station in Kent is also closed to rail traffic very early several minutes before a train is due.
This crossing is unusual in that it is hand operated with "heritage" crossing gates which are locked by the operation of a ground frame.
Operated by a crossing keeper who also mans the ticket office.
3 trains per hour each way pass through or stop at the station.
Possibly the only location where High Speed class 395 Javelin trains pass over a level crossing with hand operated traditional crossing gates.

Don't forget Chartham, 2 stops down the line....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't forget the level crossing the user has to power themselves!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRQt_PMhBXY

I have very fond memories of this crossing as a kid and am quite surprised that it is still in existance...

 

[cjmillsnun]

In the recently uploaded video by Network Rail, there's a delay of just under 10 seconds by my count on the AHB in the first video.

10s from the barrier being fully down is about right IIRC on an AHB.

 

[MarkyT]

According to Part 3 of NR/L2/SIG/11201/ Mod X10, in relation to AHBs:

The minimum warning time allowed at AHB crossings is 27 seconds.

Single lines require 27 seconds + equipment response time* + 1 sec for each 3m over 15m length

Double lines require 37 seconds (27 sec + 10 sec for ATC*), + equipment response time* + 1 sec for each 3m over 15m length

Just a clarification: the AHB double track warning time is still only 27 seconds, its just that the train is actually sensed at the 37 second position and the start of the warning is delayed for 10 seconds at which point the yellow light illuminates (the first event of the sequence).

Clearly if the next train on the other line is already within the 27 second warning time the barriers must remain closed after the 1st train clears the crossing. The reason for the extra 10 seconds allowance is to ensure that the barriers are also prevented from rising if the warning sequence for the 2nd train would have started within 10 seconds of the 1st train clearing. This enforces a safe minimum 'road open time' of at least 10 seconds between trains.

At early AHB crossings in the 1960s and 70s there was an extra illuminated road signal to indicate 'Another Train Coming' if the barriers didn't rise immediately after the 1st train. These were removed later however partly because if the ATC light failed to illuminate there was a danger road users might assume the crossing had broken and might take their chances zig-zagging round the half barriers . . . just as a second train would be approaching.

 

[TDK]

I guess the minimum time is on an AHB? What is it, out of interest? 15s?

From the yellow light it is 27 seconds, ooops sorry someone beat me to it. There can be 10s from barriers down to train passing all depending on where the signal is protecting the crossing and if it is operated manually. For instance Gobowen on the down the protecting signal is jut 20m from the crossing when the barriers are lowered it is only 5 seconds before the signal is released and another 5 seconds or so for the train to pass the crossing
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Depends from what point? It can be as little as 11 seconds from the time the barriers are in the lowered position. At ABCL crossings the train driver gets the White flashing light (all clear) from the moment the barriers start to lower.

Back in the day I knew speed merchant drivers that liked to get to AHBs as the arms where still lowering

Also back in the day I remember that drivers used to brake for the treadles

 

[edwin_m]

From the yellow light it is 27 seconds, ooops sorry someone beat me to it. There can be 10s from barriers down to train passing all depending on where the signal is protecting the crossing and if it is operated manually. For instance Gobowen on the down the protecting signal is jut 20m from the crossing when the barriers are lowered it is only 5 seconds before the signal is released and another 5 seconds or so for the train to pass the crossing

However where the crossing is signal-protected, unless the train has a station stop like Gobowen, the crossing will normally be closed and the signal cleared far enough ahead to give the train a run through without seeing any adverse aspects. This can mean the barriers go down while the train is still a couple of miles away.

 

[Deepgreen]

However where the crossing is signal-protected, unless the train has a station stop like Gobowen, the crossing will normally be closed and the signal cleared far enough ahead to give the train a run through without seeing any adverse aspects. This can mean the barriers go down while the train is still a couple of miles away.

My station is Betchworth, which has a platform starter signal-protected (in the Reigate direction) busy road level crossing. The irritation here (and not necessarily only as a road user) is the vast variation in operating regimes for the same train movements, day on day. My morning train is scheduled to call at the station before using the crossing, and the crossing may be closed up to four minutes before the train is due to depart, even though it has the protection of the starting signal!

On some days the train is allowed to enter the platform under a red signal aspect before the barriers are lowered, but this is, sadly, rare. On days when the barriers are lowered unnecessarily early, the starting signal may (or may not) be cleared before the train arrives. Even when the train is late and the barriers are down, the signal still may not be cleared even when the train has halted at the platform and the guard then has to wait for it to clear before giving the signal to the driver to close the doors (this is class 165/166 stock which has driver door closing only), thus unnecessarily making it even later. If the train is late and the barriers are already down, why not clear the signal (bearing in mind that there is not a headway issue here - trains are about half an hour apart)?

Things are made even worse for some passengers as access to the Reigate platform is only possible from the south across the level crossing, and, when a train is due to pass each way (which is the case with my morning train), it is not unusual for the crossing to be closed for 7 or 8 minutes, meaning would-be Reigate-bound passengers are needlessly trapped on the wrong side of the crossing waiting for 3 or 4 minutes for the second train (which has had to stop before the crossing under the protection of the starting signal anyway) to depart without them on board (next train - 1 hour)!

Extremely frustrating when better consistency of level crossing operation would be so helpful and is very achievable (as demonstrated on those all-too-infrequent occasions when it is done properly).

A signaller controlling level crossings has a responsibility for balancing rail and road operations. Every time road users are held for unnecessarily long periods when the railway signalling would perfectly safely permit otherwise, they are more and more likely to 'jump the lights' next time.

 

[Llanigraham]

A signaller controlling level crossings has a responsibility for balancing rail and road operations. Every time road users are held for unnecessarily long periods when the railway signalling would perfectly safely permit otherwise, they are more and more likely to 'jump the lights' next time.

No they don't!
They have a responsibility to ensure that the level crossing is used in accordance with the Rules for the safety of the railway and the general public. The railway takes precedent!
At my level crossing you might have to wait at least 4 minutes before a train passes and I will NOT work differently just because someone on the road is too impatient to wait. In fact blowing the horn or shouting at me might make me work more slowly!

 

[Deepgreen]

No they don't!
They have a responsibility to ensure that the level crossing is used in accordance with the Rules for the safety of the railway and the general public. The railway takes precedent!
At my level crossing you might have to wait at least 4 minutes before a train passes and I will NOT work differently just because someone on the road is too impatient to wait. In fact blowing the horn or shouting at me might make me work more slowly!

I agree the railway must take precedent, but unnecessary (i.e. those not caused by railway safety considerations) delays don't help anyone - and I am talking in the case of Betchworth about a location remote from the 'box (at Reigate), so shouting/horns won't have any effect anyway. I still believe level crossing operators should have a responsible attitude to road users (i.e. "the general public" as you put it), and those that don't simply exacerbate the frustration that leads to safety compromises.

Why would anyone, anywhere, have to wait for at least four minutes for a train to pass?! No wonder more and more road users jump the lights if this is the expectation!

 

[GB]

Why would anyone, anywhere, have to wait for at least four minutes for a train to pass?! No wonder more and more road users jump the lights if this is the expectation!

Length of signalling sections,
Line speed
Speed of train
AB or TCB
Any stopping points between the annunciator point and level crossing.

There are many things that affect how long it takes for the barriers to be down and to be frank, 4 minutes is not really the end of the world.

 

[carriageline]

Also, some locations don't like you letting a train enter a station with the crossing at the end, with the barriers up. It worsens the big SPAD risk.

Trains get green signals, so the barriers go down early enough to allow That to happen, and they stay down if there's a chance another train will see a YY/Y.

And seeing as the public cannot use crossings very well, why should I up/down them between trains. That just increases the risk of someone getting trapped, or similar mishap!

All my level crossings at platforms have stopping/non stopping controls so have different striking in points

 

[Deepgreen]

Also, some locations don't like you letting a train enter a station with the crossing at the end, with the barriers up. It worsens the big SPAD risk.

Trains get green signals, so the barriers go down early enough to allow That to happen, and they stay down if there's a chance another train will see a YY/Y.

And seeing as the public cannot use crossings very well, why should I up/down them between trains. That just increases the risk of someone getting trapped, or similar mishap!

All my level crossings at platforms have stopping/non stopping controls so have different striking in points

I have read it all now: people "cannot use level crossings very well", so let's make them even more frustrating to use for road users (vehicles and pedestrians) by leaving them closed between widely-spaced trains, thereby increasing risk-taking still further! To extend that logic to an unworkable extent - just leave them closed all the time on the basis that someone could become trapped. Signallers are the interface between the railway and the 'rest of the world' and, as such, need to take all crossing users' requirements into account (and, yes, speaking as a railwayman, and as I have already said, with the railway taking reasonable precedent). Part of the problem is, of course, that so few crossings are now controlled locally and therefore efficiently. You can't beat a 'box next to its crossing for slick operation.

Four minutes is a long time for a train to pass - try timing it sitting where you are and imagine you are waiting to cross (as in the case of Betchworth, to catch that very train, which has to stop before the crossing in any case!). At Betchworth, as with several other locations I know well (Ashtead being the worst) it seems as if the signallers do not want to rely on the installed signalling system to provide safety but enforce their own local and personal regimes. It is this huge variation in operating styles at the same location that is so frustrating.