Letters on the side of a train

[O L Leigh]

Whether they look here or elsewhere is immaterial. This information is interesting but potentially explosive. I'm just not happy that, just because it's stated elsewhere, it's OK to repeat and, therefore, propagate the information here. While some freight wagons have clearly labelled handbrakes really is neither here nor there (especially as these are just to stop them wandering off on their own). What concerns me as the driver of passenger trains is what happens to the many more passenger trains packed with hundreds of members of the public if those intent on mischief learned the real meaning of all those abbreviations clearly labelled inside our trains.

As for acting the hurt party, please grow up. You've just been a little naive and nothing more, so please don't try and make out that you've been mugged by the rest of us. Your experience is one thing, and that's fine for the line you work. But, as I said above, what you experience is not necessarily replicated elsewhere. You are lucky with the calibre of troublemakers you've been getting, because ours are a whole lot smarter.

O L Leigh

 

[Aictos]

Without parroting drivers here, I don't feel it's required to be published what everything does on a train, I for one am happy leaving that sort of knowledge to the drivers/fitters, unless you know what you are actually doing you're more likely to cause damage then good.

 

[455driver]

Whats the worst thing that could happen? theres no 'self distruct' button down there, so worst situation is a runaway? If any train has a parking brake that can be released from the outside, that is really bad and dangerous design,

Electrocution if they touch the wrong bit, so you are saying that a train with no brakes isn't a bad thing, ask the depot driver that took a 455 off the wheel lathe with all the brakes isolated (externally), it stopped when it got to the buffers!

so I can't quite believe it myself.

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant, the FACT is that some of these levers can have serious consequences.

Daniel, get off your high horse and don't patronise me. This forum is not just for railway staff and I have as much of a valid opinion as anyone else on here. if you don't like it, you don't have to read it.

If you don't like the truth then fine. Lines like "I can't quite believe it myself" make it clear that you have no idea about the "big" railway.

And I though we were talking about the various letters that label the levers and buttons accessible from the platform? I'd have thought you'd have to be on the lineside to be able to get at third rail stuff.

Wrong again, most levers must be able to be accessed from ground AND platform level.

a vehicle running away from a platform from having a lever messed with is unlikely, since track through platforms tends to be level.

Really I didn't know that, oh yeah that's right, you are wrong again. Even terminus stations are on gradients.

Anyway, I'm not even trying to argue that its not unsafe to meddle with things on the undreframes of trains.

Now on that we do agree!

All I said was it doesn't need to be as top secret on here as some people think it should be. As I've already said, people will mess with things if they need to, and whats posted on here or not will not change that in the slightest.

We don't want to make it any easier for them either!

 

[thefab444]

It's a shame but a number of threads seem to end up like this, with a Staff vs Non-Staff row, with the staff being generally patronising and thinking they know everything, and the non-staff also thinking they know everything!

As someone who doesn't need to know what the underframe of train does, I couldn't care what the things stand for. The sorts of low-life that would cause problems by fiddling are highly unlike to visit this forum, unless they're some kind of professional 'railway disruption causer'.

 

[AlexS]

Calm down ladies and gents :P

Anyone with half an idea of how something mechanical might work or not work should be able to gather what anything ending in 'IC' at least basically does.

I actually get the points of Mr 455 Drive and Mr Leigh for once - I do recall seeing in the paper about some scroates that invaded a Valley Lines unit and essentially disabled it from the bottom up, jumped on the roof, assaulted the guard etc. They ain't thick and will cause mayhem in whatever fashion they want to, no matter how unconventional :P As this forum seems to grow and get more attention then it's probably prudent to be a bit careful about what gets posted.

 

[IanXC]

I can't believe I just read all that argument just because I'm so puzzled at what PBIC stands for.... Is it just me who gets all intrigued by unknown abbreviations? Best make sure I don't read any more on my journey to work in the morning!

 

[142094]

Why not just remove all the letters? It seems that most of the driver's know their trains inside out and I would hope a fitter would know as well what each part does. If not, have a diagram somewhere secure so no-one apart from drivers and fitters can find out.

 

[O L Leigh]

I had a chat with Vulcan via PM last night. While it's not appropriate to repeat it here in it's entirety, there were a number of key points that I would like to share.

What concerns me is not that certain information should be considered top secret, but that the propagation of potentially sensitive information can have unwanted side-effects. By repeating information more widely across the internet we are making it easier to find, and we have had occasions in the past when self-confessed vandals have come onto this forum to post their boasts. If they know it's here to post to they certainly know it's here to read. Just looking at the activity list shows that only about 25% of the people currently active are registered users with the rest being unregistered guests who could be just about anyone. Now we could answer every question asked in a full and frank manner, but quite honestly I wouldn't want to because a little knowledge can be very dangerous indeed, especially when you don't know what manner of person is accessing it.

It's bad enough that the local vandals where I work clearly know enough of the driver and unit diagrams to be able to access the carriage sidings and vandalise the units stabled there (and then know precisely when the affected trains are moved to the depot so they can get photos), but when someone goes through a service train opening cupboards and isolating the brakes (yes, this happened on a GE Cl321) it becomes a whole different ball game. Even the tykes who break into the cabs for the detonators and glow sticks know precisely which units have CCTV and which do not, and how to circumvent the system to get into the cabs undetected. When said tykes decide to heave the large fire extinguisher out of the cab window into the path of another train at a combined speed of 160mph or more, you have a recipe for disaster. One of our drivers has already required hospital treatment as a consequence of such an incident when the extinguisher hit the windscreen.

One of the things that causes friction between staff and non-staff on this forum is that staff tend to have a heightened awareness of the consequences of what gets posted. I appreciate that sometimes a question is asked in all innocence, but there are times when the information being asked for is something that we'd rather not be widely known for the reasons I've just explained. Unfortunately non-staff members do not always appreciate this which is why threads often descend into arguments and recriminations.

Yes, the majority of the toe-rags just tag the trains, etch the windows and pull the seats up, but there is an increasing number that seems to know enough to cause REAL havoc should they be minded to do so. I really would rather not give these people the tools and information to actually do something that could impair safety and possibly end up costing lives.

O L Leigh

 

[richw]

a bit of googling and searching the net would almost certainly reveal all the codes and abbrviations stood for anyway,
if someone was wanting to cause real problems whats stopping them applying for relevant training and employment within the industry to get inside information prior to causing disruption

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Because it takes a lot of time and effort to get through all of the psychometric testing, then there's the medical, drug screening etc to go through.

You only need to read the job descriptions to see how many "hoops" you have to jump through to get a job either on the "footplate" or fitters side.

 

[O L Leigh]

richw: Oh well, in that case it's alright then. Lets just have a free-for-all, shall we?

I'm afraid you missed my point entirely. I am perfectly well aware that this information is already in the public domain, but I am also perfectly well aware of the use it could be put to (and, frankly, the possibilities keep me awake at night). We've already had a driver needing hospital treatment because someone with a key and a little knowledge almost took his head off with a fire extinguisher. I really don't want to think how much longer it will be before one of us gets killed or vandalism causes a smash-up of similar proportions to Clapham.

O L Leigh

 

[Greenback]

I fully endorse and support OL Leigh's stance.

It may be that the information can be found on line somewhere, but it makes it easier for scum if they cna find it all in one thread here.

As for gaining employment, well that is an even longer way of getting the info, and I would hope they would not pass the selection.

 

[richw]

richw: Oh well, in that case it's alright then. Lets just have a free-for-all, shall we?

I'm afraid you missed my point entirely. I am perfectly well aware that this information is already in the public domain, but I am also perfectly well aware of the use it could be put to (and, frankly, the possibilities keep me awake at night). We've already had a driver needing hospital treatment because someone with a key and a little knowledge almost took his head off with a fire extinguisher. I really don't want to think how much longer it will be before one of us gets killed or vandalism causes a smash-up of similar proportions to Clapham.

O L Leigh

At no point did i mention it should be published on here, but i was drawing attention to this being available, if a genuine enthiusiast was interested for a legitimate reason!

I fully endorse and support OL Leigh's stance.

It may be that the information can be found on line somewhere, but it makes it easier for scum if they cna find it all in one thread here.

As for gaining employment, well that is an even longer way of getting the info, and I would hope they would not pass the selection.

if someone wanted to cause serious carnage for whatever reason, they often go through years of training and classes in how to do something, they come across as genuine and do everything they can to find out the information, i hope nobody ever does such a thing, but sadly you hear more and more of such instances around the world and you can only worry that maybe it could come to the UK at some point!

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Absolute Twaddle. That's all I have to say on the matter.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

At no point did i mention it should be published on here, but i was drawing attention to this being available, if a genuine enthiusiast was interested for a legitimate reason!

Why would a genuine enthusiast want to know, and what would be a legitimate interest?
The abbreviations really aren't that interesting anyway!

As with Greenback, I support O L Leigh on this one.

 

[richw]

Why would a genuine enthusiast want to know, and what would be a legitimate interest?
The abbreviations really aren't that interesting anyway!

As with Greenback, I support O L Leigh on this one.

i dont know what any of them mean, until reading this thread i always thought they just signified type of carriage, facilities available in the carriage etc, the first reply was rather rude and patronising when the poster could of said that what he said far more politer, that they were safety notes for engineers and staff knowledge. rather than being quite rude and frankly quite abrupt to the OP, who may of not known they were safety critical items!

 

[Greenback]

As far as I can see, the first reply was by ExmoorBeast, who merely asked whether these things should be discussed. I can't see any sort of attack on the OP!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At no point did i mention it should be published on here, but i was drawing attention to this being available, if a genuine enthiusiast was interested for a legitimate reason!



if someone wanted to cause serious carnage for whatever reason, they often go through years of training and classes in how to do something, they come across as genuine and do everything they can to find out the information, i hope nobody ever does such a thing, but sadly you hear more and more of such instances around the world and you can only worry that maybe it could come to the UK at some point!

Is there any source for this? Or are you merely relying on hearsay and scare stories? To be honest, it sounds as though you are referring to the terrorists behind 9/11, whereas here I thought we were discussing whether we should be posting info that could help mindless vandals.

 

[richw]

As far as I can see, the first reply was by ExmoorBeast, who merely asked whether these things should be discussed. I can't see any sort of attack on the OP!

an explanation of why not to discuss such things would of been polite, which would then of prevented the patronising responses that followed.

Is there any source for this? Or are you merely relying on hearsay and scare stories? To be honest, it sounds as though you are referring to the terrorists behind 9/11, whereas here I thought we were discussing whether we should be posting info that could help mindless vandals.

just what i've read in newspapers throught the past, not necesarily true, simply dont know whats true and not true what you read in the papers these days in all honesty. the article refered to incidents in other countrys and nothing uk based however

 

[Greenback]

an explanation of why not to discuss such things would of been polite, which would then of prevented the patronising responses that followed.



just what i've read in newspapers throught the past, not necesarily true, simply dont know whats true and not true what you read in the papers these days in all honesty. the article refered to incidents in other countrys and nothing uk based however

I'll be honest rich and say that I have noticed these letters on the side of trains and have no interest in them myself. I therefore listen to those who do know and rely on what they say. And that's good enough for me, as they experience what mindless idiots can do with the knowledge they have, and are in the front line should anything happen.

I don't think it's fair to blame 'the beast' for the posts that followed. He merely asked a question. He could have been a lot more rude and patronising than that!

A terrorist will always find ways of causing atrocities, there;s not much we can do about that. The concern here is that someone with an obsessively unhealthy interest in trains and a limited intelligence may be given the idea of playing around with something because of information posted on this, or any other, thread in the forum!

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Ever heard of the expression by Alexander Pope: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

A little knowledge in the wrong hands can cause major problems with the potential for fatal results; So what happens then if some idiot decides Ooo, I wonder what happens if I turn this and maybe isolates a safety critical system like brakes, fire suppression system? No one notices it in the morning and the train goes out with a safety system or the brakes aren't working properly.

 

[AlexS]

How blown out of proportion is this!

Enthusiasts find things interesting, that's why they're enthusiasts. If you find something interesting you're bound to ask about it, and if the answer isn't forthcoming then it isn't.

If someone who knows something doesn't want to post it, they don't have to even mention it. If someone else chooses to then such is life. 4 pages on the matter is crazy.

Should all the privately owned 37s and 47s be withdrawn and scrapped just in case one of the volunteer fitters (read enthusiasts) who maintain them gain access to Kingmoor one merry evening and decide to cause havoc? :P

Should I as an enthusiast be locked in a small room because I know how to disconnect or alter and take to pieces a signal head/post/box or relay room or loc ad infinitum when my 'real' job doesn't require me to (I work in an office )? I like to think I'm trustworthy enough not to do it unless Network Rail ask me to (which happens every now and then!).

The need to know argument is one that could run for ever because at the end of the day, one persons definition of it is different to another.

Could we leave the argument at the point that the drivers/fitters or whoever who have posted don't really want to tell the OP the answer to the question for their own reasons and everyone else (me included) is a bit of a useless hanger on :P

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Careless talk can be quiet costly, namely your job & your freedom. Something's should be kept quiet for obvious reasons.

 

[charlesn132]

Ever heard of the expression by Alexander Pope: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

A little knowledge in the wrong hands can cause major problems with the potential for fatal results; So what happens then if some idiot decides Ooo, I wonder what happens if I turn this and maybe isolates a safety critical system like brakes, fire suppression system? No one notices it in the morning and the train goes out with a safety system or the brakes aren't working properly.

Don't trains get checked to make sure they are safe every morning?

 

[455driver]

Yes up to a point!

As for all the letters on the side of the train, I ain't particularly interested as they don't concern me (unless one dispenses coffee ) so I don't need to know, just like anybody else that doesn't drive or fix them.
Being nosey is not a legitimate reason to be given the info!

 

[321446]

How blown out of proportion is this!

Enthusiasts find things interesting, that's why they're enthusiasts. If you find something interesting you're bound to ask about it, and if the answer isn't forthcoming then it isn't.

If someone who knows something doesn't want to post it, they don't have to even mention it. If someone else chooses to then such is life. 4 pages on the matter is crazy.

Should all the privately owned 37s and 47s be withdrawn and scrapped just in case one of the volunteer fitters (read enthusiasts) who maintain them gain access to Kingmoor one merry evening and decide to cause havoc? :P

Should I as an enthusiast be locked in a small room because I know how to disconnect or alter and take to pieces a signal head/post/box or relay room or loc ad infinitum when my 'real' job doesn't require me to (I work in an office )? I like to think I'm trustworthy enough not to do it unless Network Rail ask me to (which happens every now and then!).

The need to know argument is one that could run for ever because at the end of the day, one persons definition of it is different to another.

Could we leave the argument at the point that the drivers/fitters or whoever who have posted don't really want to tell the OP the answer to the question for their own reasons and everyone else (me included) is a bit of a useless hanger on :P

NO. Todays enthusiast can end up tomorrows staff. Me for example. So dont feel put upon. However just as O L, myself and others have to deal with things we would rather not want to, unfortunately you may have to accept that things dont go or you dont get what you would like. Its nothing personal. Its not meant personal. Dont take it personal. If you ever at Southen Vic, wave at the blue hut. We are people too. Even Depot Drivers.

 

[AlexS]

You misunderstand me point my ducky. I don't give a flying monkeys what PBIC means, although I can have an educated guess - it matters very little to me (probably about as little as the assembly of the conbox of a HB type point machine is worth knowing to you, I still find it interesting to play with!).

It's more that I find the normal tooing and froing between people about what is right and what is wrong fairly tedious and am of the opinion people should just live and let live rather than shout each other down. If someone quietly tells this interested person what PBIC means it won't cause the world to end. But there's equally no reason to go out of your way to tell him either. So both camps should quietly withdraw and the OP might get his answer one day.

I respect the knowledge of everyone on here, I just find it a bit disturbing that it's the *interest* that's being shouted down - there's nothing wrong per sé with genuine interest. If every enthusiast just thought 'oooh look at the pretty colours' there wouldn't be any preservation movement. Maybe, one day, some 158 heap will be preserved (although presumably there may be one of the mystical PBIC on a 141, therefore, an enthusiast may actually already have access to it) :P


Personally, if I want to know something out of curiosity, I ask a friend, who generally as they know I'm not going to cause trouble with the information, will explain it to me.

I will concede the point that I wouldn't go asking about it on a web forum though

 

[Greenback]

You misunderstand me point my ducky. I don't give a flying monkeys what PBIC means, although I can have an educated guess - it matters very little to me (probably about as little as the assembly of the conbox of a HB type point machine is worth knowing to you, I still find it interesting to play with!).

It's more that I find the normal tooing and froing between people about what is right and what is wrong fairly tedious and am of the opinion people should just live and let live rather than shout each other down. If someone quietly tells this interested person what PBIC means it won't cause the world to end. But there's equally no reason to go out of your way to tell him either. So both camps should quietly withdraw and the OP might get his answer one day.

I respect the knowledge of everyone on here, I just find it a bit disturbing that it's the *interest* that's being shouted down - there's nothing wrong per sé with genuine interest. If every enthusiast just thought 'oooh look at the pretty colours' there wouldn't be any preservation movement. Maybe, one day, some 158 heap will be preserved (although presumably there may be one of the mystical PBIC on a 141, therefore, an enthusiast may actually already have access to it) :P


Personally, if I want to know something out of curiosity, I ask a friend, who generally as they know I'm not going to cause trouble with the information, will explain it to me.

I will concede the point that I wouldn't go asking about it on a web forum though

Good we agree! The point, as far as I cna see it, is that there are a lot of guests browsing the forums, a small minority iof whom may be the sort of people that has been discussed.

The trouble with asking questions, and getting the answers, on an open forum is that this can be seen by anyone! And it might give them ideas that they hadn't previously thought of!

There's nothing wrong with asking questions, but soemtimes it may not be appropriate to provide the answers!

 

[ainsworth74]

Then perhaps if a member of staff feels that the questioner is unlikely to be up to no good but would rather not broadcast to a large guest audience then a PM with an answer would suffice, rather than this bickering over the need to know?

 

[CarterUSM]

Then perhaps if a member of staff feels that the questioner is unlikely to be up to no good but would rather not broadcast to a large guest audience then a PM with an answer would suffice, rather than this bickering over the need to know?

Best post yet. Spot on.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Agreed. Can you all shut up now?