Letter from TIL

[Jimmybonds007]

Hello. Like many on here, I need advice please but also experience of anyone that's been in this position.

My son (18) bought, knowingly, a child fare a few months ago. Yesterday he got the 21 day to submit evidence letter. On it it says he told the inspector he'd done this before.

So keeping emotion out off this and judging him too, can I have an idea what to do please?

He's been an absolute idiot, totally in the wrong and frankly deserves what he gets but I am his father and he is obviously panicking as he never been in trouble before. He has no mitigation so not sure there's even any point filling in the form. Reading on here it seems they are likely to prosecute but he's a student (just finished a levels and goes to uni in September) and so has very little money.

Is there any chance writing a contrrite letter might grant him a fine? I know they don't care and they would win the case, but it seems a total waste of time and money prosecuting a student or can they look to the parents!!?

I did call Chiltern CS and they told me to write to their head of investigations but I suspect he will just point me back to TIL...

Many thanks for any guidance.

 

[Wethebest838]

Can you attach a copy of the letter but with personal details crossed out?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello. Like many on here, I need advice please but also experience of anyone that's been in this position.

My son (18) bought, knowingly, a child fare a few months ago. Yesterday he got the 21 day to submit evidence letter. On it it says he told the inspector he'd done this before.

So keeping emotion out off this and judging him too, can I have an idea what to do please?

He's been an absolute idiot, totally in the wrong and frankly deserves what he gets but I am his father and he is obviously panicking as he never been in trouble before. He has no mitigation so not sure there's even any point filling in the form.

It's vital to fill out the form and start engaging with TIL the railway - or it WILL go to court. Your objective is to seek to keep it out of court if possible and seek an 'out of court settlement' - well your son's objective obv as he is over 18 and an adult. As you prob know you have to be under 16 to use a child fare legitimately

Reading on here it seems they are likely to prosecute

No - loads of cases on here (most in fact) do not get to prosecution.

but he's a student (just finished a levels and goes to uni in September) and so has very little money.

He'd best get a railcard ASAP so he can start saving money without breaking the law

Is there any chance writing a contrrite letter might grant him a fine?

Yes, but not a fine - instead an out of court settlment - a payment your son would need to pay of the railway agree to let that happen (they have no obligation to offer it).

So get drafting such a contrite letter (see other thread for advice on what to cover) - with TIL it may be necessary to write 2 or 3 times to obtain this but it is possible - even for a blatant fare evasion case like this with evidence of repeated evasion.

Your son needs to know that they will now check and trace all on line ticket buying from any retailer to find out how often he has bought child tickets.

I know they don't care and they would win the case, but it seems a total waste of time and money prosecuting a student or can they look to the parents!!?

This is the wrong attitude to take with respect. They can prosecute efficiently - he's already admitted it - so they will win, and the court will award costs against your son too to cover their expenses. As he is an adult they can not look to the parents. If guilty at court his income will be considered when setting the court fine, but your objective must be to seek to prevent it going to court to start with.

I guess your son can look to the parents to bail out the sum needed for any settlement (think in excess of £150...) but the court can't.

I did call Chiltern CS and they told me to write to their head of investigations but I suspect he will just point me back to TIL...

Almost certainly they will - there is no point in ringing anyone now - all engagement must be in writing

Many thanks for any guidance.

Have a go at drafting a suitable apology (see other threads) then if you like post it up here for people to help get your draft as good as it can be. Well, get your son to draft it. If he is a student he ought to be able to write something suitable.

 

[Jimmybonds007]

Thank you so much. We will draft over the weekend. I will also uplaod the letter. 2 quick question. Can it be by email or are you saying letter by post? Secondly, should we also write/email to chiltern head of fraud or just TIL?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you so much. We will draft over the weekend. I will also uplaod the letter. 2 quick question. Can it be by email or are you saying letter by post? Secondly, should we also write/email to chiltern head of fraud or just TIL?

Write back to who has written to you (so if that is TIL reply to them - they are handling the case on behalf of Chiltern in that scenario)

You can reply to whatever address / e-mail it says on the letter you have received from them. But some seem to want to see an actual signature on what you send back so it ma be necessary to scan it. If I was e-mailing I'd also be tempted to print a copy and send it registered post as well to be on the safe side.

See the advice @Hadders often gives in threads on what approach to take in the reply - should be easy to find an example

 

[Jimmybonds007]

Write back to who has written to you (so if that is TIL reply to them - they are handling the case on behalf of Chiltern in that scenario)

You can reply to whatever address / e-mail it says on the letter you have received from them. But some seem to want to see an actual signature on what you send back so it ma be necessary to scan it. If I was e-mailing I'd also be tempted to print a copy and send it registered post as well to be on the safe side.

See the advice @Hadders often gives in threads on what approach to take in the reply - should be easy to find an example

Thanks again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

This looks to be the template.

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

This looks to be the template.

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before.

Yes, spot on.

One thing you can do is by buying a Railcard now your son can say he has actively taken steps to reduce fares in future (do this so you can say it - even if no immediate plans to use the train) - also be aware that Chiltern / TIL do play hard ball with evasion - and we usually see on this forum ppl needing to write to them 2 or 3 times to get the outcome needed. With that in mind you may want to 'hold back' on some things to be said to use later on in another letter (eg you could hold back mentioning being a student with future in front of them as something to say later on if they do not agree).

You also need to get your son to be honest with you privately (no need to state it here) about how often he has done this. That may have an impact on TIL liklihood to settle if he has been routinely evading for example. Unless he was buying child tickets with cash at a ticket machine TIL will know / be able to check how often he has done this in the past.

 

[railfan99]

Thank you so much. We will draft over the weekend. I will also uplaod the letter. 2 quick question. Can it be by email or are you saying letter by post? Secondly, should we also write/email to chiltern head of fraud or just TIL?

Irrespective as to the subject matter, it will have far more effect if it's mailed, not just emailed.

If your son can write neatly (i.e. comprehensible to the reader), perhaps even better if he can hand write it rather than just type it on a PC, but if so doing, make sure he puts his full home address on the right hand top of the letter and that it's written (if you can buy some) proper stationery, without lines. Then ensure he signs it 'Yours faithfully' (unless to a particular person in which case 'Yours sincerely' should be used) and puts his name beneath the signature.

I agree: send it registered post: this shows your lad cares about the matter.

Keep a copy of all correspondence: photocopy if that's needed, and keep a copy of the registered post proof of purchase/tracking number if latter is available.

We don't have the option of paying off the operator in my country so that's a positive for your son.

 

[JBuchananGB]

send it registered post: this shows your lad cares about the matter.

The service is called "Royal Mail Signed For"

 

[Jimmybonds007]

Here is the letter and form which is simply to add all illegal fare purchases. As you can see they’ve already accessed his Trainline account but he will of course put EVERYTHING down on the form. We bought him a railcard as soon as he told us about the incident and what he’d been doing to try and save money ‍♂️

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

Unfortunately gen z do everything digitally which, whilst convenient, leaves a trail…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

Piecing all the advice together, we will draft a response and put on here. Once generally accepted, he will then handwrite it and then send in registered post and email. Thanks again. Incredible support on here.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Some good advice has been given in this thread, a few other things to mention:

There's little point in contacting Chiltern's Head of Investigations. TIL are dealing with the case, they deal with loads of these sort of cases and the Head of Investigations will not be involved in it at this stage (and almost certain not at all)
You can reply by email but it needs to be a scanned copy of a letter with a signature on it so it's probably just best to send it 1st class signed for. (The Post Office will try and get you to send it Special Delivery which costs significantly more - you don't need this, 1st class signed for will suffice)
Be aware that if your son purchases his tickets online or through an app TIL will have access to his ticket purchasing history. They are indicating that they think your son might have avoided the correect fare on previous occasions. It would be worth checking this yourself via the purchase history in the account.
There's no expectation of a hand written reply. A typed letter is probably easier for them to read.

A first reply to TIL often results in a letter back saying that they see no reason whythey shouldn't proceed to prosecution. It's often necessary to write to them again before they will agree to an out of couer settlement.

Do post a copy of your draft reply in this thread and we will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Jimmybonds007]

Thank you. We will work on this over the weekend.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

We will put all details in and then perhaps more experienced members may suggest what (if any) information should be held back if/when the second letter has to go in.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. We will work on this over the weekend.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

We will put all details in and then perhaps more experienced members may suggest what (if any) information should be held back if/when the second letter has to go in.

Yes, ppl will happily advice about that

One question to the forum - how to handle the bit where they are basically asking the OP's son to incriminate himself for multiple other occasions. How should the OP best handle that at thsi stage. Tho they will have the digital train is it actually a good idea for the OP to list occasions or basically claim something vague like 'this may have happend on other occasions for which i am extremely sorry'

A signed list of all instances provided by the OP son is just evidence for TIL to use in court to secure a large rpently - shoudl they wish to go that way. I think it would be helpful for others to give some advice on this - IIRC @AlterEgo and @furlong often have clear views on that aspect.

The OP should discuss the instances with the son - if it was 1 or 2 other times then maybe no harm in stating - if it's 50 or so it may be a different matter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

nfortunately gen z do everything digitally which, whilst convenient, leaves a trail…

I'm not over familiar with the criminal fraternity AFAIK but I assume that old lags would generally advice those new to it that leaving obvious fingerprints and evidence is not the best modus opendi...

 

[Jimmybonds007]

Ok so facts are needed and believe me this is not easy to write but it’s pointless getting help if you don’t have the full facts.

In the last year (between June 22 and Mrxh 23) it’s 23 times on a child account so he could save £2. I bought him an 18-25 railcard and he still bought child tickets. The only half decent thing he’s done is he’s obviously stopped buying child tickets from the date he was caught (March).

He’s in big trouble at home and I could play hard parenting here but for those who are parents, I’m sure you can understand my conflict.

Not sure this changes anything but the last person did mention about him incriminating himself.

So more then ever, I need good advice!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

Maybe we need a solicitor or am I over thinking this? Will they really want to prosecute a stupid naive teenager!?

 

[Hadders]

Ok so facts are needed and believe me this is not easy to write but it’s pointless getting help if you don’t have the full facts.

In the last year (between June 22 and Mrxh 23) it’s 23 times on a child account so he could save £2. I bought him an 18-25 railcard and he still bought child tickets. The only half decent thing he’s done is he’s obviously stopped buying child tickets from the date he was caught (March).

He’s in big trouble at home and I could play hard parenting here but for those who are parents, I’m sure you can understand my conflict.

Not sure this changes anything but the last person did mention about him incriminating himself.

So more then ever, I need good advice!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jul 2023 ==

Maybe we need a solicitor or am I over thinking this? Will they really want to prosecute a stupid naive teenager!?

Don't beat yourself up over what's happened. I wouldn't worry about him incriminating himself, TIL would find out anyway.

The important thing to do now is to be truthful in the reply to TIL. I would mention that you've researched the onine account details and you believe there are 23 occasions where a child ticket has been purchased instead of a 16-25 railcard discounted ticket.

Personally I don't think a solicitor is needed at this stage. I wuld wait and see how TIL respond to your letter (as I mentioned it's often necessary to write to them a couple of times to get a settlement). If they did decide to prosecute then this would be the time to involve a solicitor.

 

[Jimmybonds007]

I think a solicitor can help if you have some mitigation. We have none really apart from him continuing to buy child fare out of habit

 

[WesternLancer]

I think a solicitor can help if you have some mitigation.

It does get mentioned on here occasionally that use of a solicitor may show how seriously you take the matter, but as others have posted I'd not think that is required unless going to court becomes unavoidable, esp if you get second opinions on your draft response from people here by way of a check of what you intend to send.

We have none really apart from him continuing to buy child fare out of habit

I suspect that fits into the 'heard it all before' category, and I'm not sure it would be one to mention. Esp if he already had a railcard and even then decided to evade fares by not using the Railcard but buying child tickets.

I suspect your draft reply just can't really offer any mitigation. But that does not mean they won't settle.

 

[Jimmybonds007]

It does get mentioned on here occasionally that use of a solicitor may show how seriously you take the matter, but as others have posted I'd not think that is required unless going to court becomes unavoidable, esp if you get second opinions on your draft response from people here by way of a check of what you intend to send.

I suspect that fits into the 'heard it all before' category, and I'm not sure it would be one to mention. Esp if he already had a railcard and even then decided to evade fares by not using the Railcard but buying child tickets.

I suspect your draft reply just can't really offer any mitigation. But that does not mean they won't settle.

Out of interest why would they settle? Do they have an incentive too? In our case they will win so keen to know what motivation they would even have to setrle beforehand!

 

[Hadders]

Out of interest why would they settle? Do they have an incentive too? In our case they will win so keen to know what motivation they would even have to setrle beforehand!

If it goes to court and your son is founf guilty the fine and surcharge goes to the Treasury. All Chiltern would get is the compensation for the fare avoided plus a contribution towards the court costs. If they settle out of court they get the full value of the settlement.

Taking a case to court involves a lot of paperwork and is expensive, train companies genuinely don't want to criminalise people for low level ticketing issues where they have not come to their attention before and where the offence is minor in the grand scale of things.

 

[Jimmybonds007]

Thank you. The most promising news today Letter coming tomorrow.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. The most promising news today Letter coming tomorrow.

Yes, as Hadders says - from observing cases u get the feeling that the ppl who are prepared to engage with them have fair chances to get settlements unless they have been given chances before and fail to learn the lesson - tho some train operators (chiltern is one) do seem to make you sweat for it! Obv they are striking a balance between making it clear this is not a soft option u can rely on vs the practical benefits for them of agreeing settlements.

 

[Jimmybonds007]

My sons letter. I wanted to upload it unedited other than grammar. Firstly, he needs to take ownership and secondly, the letter needs to sound like an 18 year and this, to me does!

Dear Ms .....

I am writing to you after the arrival of a letter of prosecution on the 7th of July 2023.

I was stopped on a train going from London Marylebone to Gerrards Cross on the 19th March 2023 by a ticket inspector as I was carrying a child's ticket as opposed to an adult's ticket with my 16-25 saver.

Upon receiving this letter, I have looked at my trainline history to see that I have repeated this action 23 times from June 2022 up until the 19th March 2023. For starters, I am incredibly apologetic for my actions and apologize for any inconvenience caused. This is completely against my character, show a lack of judgement and is the first time I have ever done anything anywhere close to this scale. I have been using child tickets for the majority of my life and I had gotten into a habit of buying them. Ever since the incident on March the 19th 2023, I have not repeated the offence and have been using the railcard.

This has been a huge learning curve for me, not only in this instance, but life in general and can ensure that under no circumstance will this be repeated again. I am an eighteen year old student and to be honest I am slightly overwhelmed by the proposition of going to courts and so I plead to Chiltern Railways for this matter to be settled outside of court by paying whatever fine and administration costs you feel is fit for the situation.

Thank you for your time

Yours sincerely,

.....

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This one could soon get relatively expensive. Twenty plus occasions admitted, if all retrospectively charged at the undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare rate (currently £11.30 if London Marylebone -> Gerrard's Cross, or more if they were actually day return journeys) plus maybe a three figure sum on top, the latter towards the train company investigation team's admin costs. Total = ???

 

[Jimmybonds007]

it will be what it will be. Either way, I need to do everything to get them to settle.

 

[AlterEgo]

it will be what it will be. Either way, I need to do everything to get them to settle.

Do keep us updated. I’m sure it’s very stressful being his parent!

 

[Jimmybonds007]

Do keep us updated. I’m sure it’s very stressful being his parent!

Thank you. Just waiting for the experienced members to comment on/amend his letter

 

[MotCO]

If I recall, a 16 -25 Railcard has a minimum fare requirement of £12 in the morning peak. If the fare from London Marylebone -> Gerrard's Cross is £11.30, is there a danger that if the OP's son is using it in the peak time, he is still underpaying?

 

[Haywain]

If I recall, a 16 -25 Railcard has a minimum fare requirement of £12 in the morning peak. If the fare from London Marylebone -> Gerrard's Cross is £11.30, is there a danger that if the OP's son is using it in the peak time, he is still underpaying?

The minimum fare applies before 10.00 on weekday mornings, but not during July and August.

 

[fandroid]

My sons letter. I wanted to upload it unedited other than grammar. Firstly, he needs to take ownership and secondly, the letter needs to sound like an 18 year and this, to me does!

Dear Ms .....

I am writing to you after the arrival of a letter of prosecution on the 7th of July 2023.

I was stopped on a train going from London Marylebone to Gerrards Cross on the 19th March 2023 by a ticket inspector as I was carrying a child's ticket as opposed to an adult's ticket with my 16-25 saver.

Upon receiving this letter, I have looked at my trainline history to see that I have repeated this action 23 times from June 2022 up until the 19th March 2023. For starters, I am incredibly apologetic for my actions and apologize for any inconvenience caused. This is completely against my character, show a lack of judgement and is the first time I have ever done anything anywhere close to this scale. I have been using child tickets for the majority of my life and I had gotten into a habit of buying them. Ever since the incident on March the 19th 2023, I have not repeated the offence and have been using the railcard.

This has been a huge learning curve for me, not only in this instance, but life in general and can ensure that under no circumstance will this be repeated again. I am an eighteen year old student and to be honest I am slightly overwhelmed by the proposition of going to courts and so I plead to Chiltern Railways for this matter to be settled outside of court by paying whatever fine and administration costs you feel is fit for the situation.

Thank you for your time

Yours sincerely,

.....

There might be eyebrows raised at the statement that "This is completely against my character". I think I would leave that out and put "This was due to a total lack of judgement and is.....". I would also cut out the bit about "anywhere close to this scale". That implies a lot of minor offences committed.. Just say "....anything like this."

Later replace "slightly overwhelmed" with just "overwhelmed"

I hope this helps

 

[Jimmybonds007]

There might be eyebrows raised at the statement that "This is completely against my character". I think I would leave that out and put "This was due to a total lack of judgement and is.....". I would also cut out the bit about "anywhere close to this scale". That implies a lot of minor offences committed.. Just say "....anything like this."

Later replace "slightly overwhelmed" with just "overwhelmed"

I hope this helps

Very helpful; thank you. I will amend once I feel all other comments are back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2023 ==

The minimum fare applies before 10.00 on weekday mornings, but not during July and August.

Not sure we need to get bogged down in how much he’s underpaid? Whatever they calculate, we will obviously have to pay.