LENNON ticket sales data

[shotayo]

Could anybody help me with my request.

I understand that all the UK rail ticketing information is collated via LENNON. is this information publicy available? what I am after is the total number of possible ticketing combination available

 

[island]

No it's not available publicly.

If you could be a bit more specific about what you have in mind there is a possibility we might be able to find something that is of use to you.

 

[yorkie]

what I am after is the total number of possible ticketing combination available

That's not something you'd need sales data for is it? But what do you mean by the total number of possible ticketing combination? The answer could be "an infinite number"

 

[maniacmartin]

LENNON stores transactions details of tickets that have been sold

I'm guessing you want to know the number of different types of tickets available for sale, and not combinations of split tickets used under NRCoC Section 19? If so, you don't need access to any LENNON data.

Do you define a ticket as being different if the origin, destination and ticket type are different?
Would a railcard-discounted ticket be a different ticket?

Tickets are not individually priced, but priced in clusters - so tickets from A to B are the same price as a station near A to a station near B. Do you consider tickets between the same cluster to be a different combination?

Do you consider Advance tickets at different price quotas to be different tickets?

Once you have the definition of what exactly you are looking for, you can use the recently published ATOC fares data which is now public to find the answer. Note that some technical knowledge of IT and of rail ticketing would be required to interrogate the data.

I'm not sure what definition The Trainline use, but they state:

We have access to over 293 million fare and journey combinations

 

[John @ home]

I'm guessing you want to know the number of different types of tickets available for sale

The 2011 McNulty report tells us

Realising the Potential of GB Rail - Final Independent Report of the Rail Value for Money Study

Each year 300 million fares are defined by operators, processed by regulatory and industry systems and made available for sale, but the overwhelming majority are never used because they relate to journeys which are never made.

 

[johnnycache]

Someone will know the exact number but if you consider there are about 2500 stations on the national rail network so even if there was just one route and one ticket type and one class of travel for each possible combination that would be 6.25 million tickets

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Whilst I agree with the foregoing replies, which hint at the total number of different tickets which are "possible", and that LENNON data would reveal a mere fraction of those possible tickets. But I see that your question was actually a little more specific : "the total number of possible ticketing combination available".

If we assume an "s" at the end of 'combination', and that your interest depends on that word 'combinations', then I will guess that the possible and available combinations are likely to be an order of magnitude greater than merely the number of available tickets. i.e. 3 billion.

 

[jb]

Someone will know the exact number but if you consider there are about 2500 stations on the national rail network so even if there was just one route and one ticket type and one class of travel for each possible combination that would be 6.25 million tickets

It's half that, if A to B is the same as B to A - there are just over 3 million distinct station pairs. I am intrigued where the numbers in the region of 300 million, let alone 3 billion, come from.

Even the lower of these numbers implies that there are, on average, about 100 different ticket types / routes / whatever confounding factors you like that lead to a distinct "fare", for each and every station pair in the country. That sounds tough to believe.

 

[cjohnson]

It's half that, if A to B is the same as B to A - there are just over 3 million distinct station pairs. I am intrigued where the numbers in the region of 300 million, let alone 3 billion, come from.

Even the lower of these numbers implies that there are, on average, about 100 different ticket types / routes / whatever confounding factors you like that lead to a distinct "fare", for each and every station pair in the country. That sounds tough to believe.

Not all the fares are reversable, so A-B may well be different to B-A.

But say 2500*2500/2 possible origin-destination combinations = 3 million. Then you'll have (say) Anytime, Off Peak, Super off-peak different fares for A-B. Add on 1st class for each and that's around 27 million. Then you've got origins/destinations that aren't stations (e.g. boundary zones, "London Zones 1-6", Tramlink, PlusBus etc.), the different routeings for tickets (Not Via London, Any Permitted etc.). Child fares, upgrades, 7 day seasons all need to be taken into account. Finally there's all the Advance tiers - there's around 30 different Advance prices for London-Manchester. It quickly adds up!

 

[NSEFAN]

Surely if you wanted to calculate the total number of possible tickets for a journey, you would end up with something of the order of 2500 factorial, as that would account for using as many splits as possible?

 

[John @ home]

there are about 2500 stations on the national rail network so even if there was just one route and one ticket type and one class of travel for each possible combination that would be 6.25 million tickets

Agreed.

It's half that, if A to B is the same as B to A

Unfortunately A to B is not always the same as B to A, so we have to treat them separately. Sometimes the fare is different.

LONDON TERMINALS - WOKING SDR ANYTIME DAY RETURN £18.60
WOKING - LONDON TERMINALS SDR ANYTIME DAY RETURN £19.40

Sometimes the time restriction is different.

STOCKPORT - SHEFFIELD Route DIRECT CDR OFF-PEAK DAY RETURN £16.60
OUTWARD TRAVEL: By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0915
RETURN TRAVEL: By any train
SHEFFIELD - STOCKPORT Route DIRECT CDR OFF-PEAK DAY RETURN £16.60
OUTWARD TRAVEL: By any train except those timed to depart Mondays to Fridays before 0930
RETURN TRAVEL: By any train

Sometimes both fare and time restriction are different.

MIDDLESBROUGH - LEEDS SVR OFF-PEAK RETURN £33.90
MONDAYS - FRIDAYS (By any train on other days).
OUTWARD TRAVEL: All trains are barred which are due to arrive in Leeds before 0930
RETURN TRAVEL: By any train.
LEEDS - MIDDLESBROUGH SVR OFF-PEAK RETURN £35.70
Available as listed below on any day.
OUTWARD TRAVEL: Valid on any train. Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities.
RETURN TRAVEL: Valid on any train.

I am intrigued where the numbers in the region of 300 million, let alone 3 billion, come from.

Even the lower of these numbers implies that there are, on average, about 100 different ticket types / routes / whatever confounding factors you like that lead to a distinct "fare", for each and every station pair in the country. That sounds tough to believe.

An average of 100 different fares per pair of stations does not appear an unrealistic estimate to me. Taking my most recent long distance journey, Morley - Bellgrove, there are 14 different First Class tickets and 21 different Standard tickets, a total of 35 different tickets. For each of these 35 tickets there may be a discount of:

0% - Adult
2% to 11% - Some fares routed EC & CONNECTNS if purchased via East Coast
34% - Railcard
36% to 41% - Railcard with some fares routed EC & CONNECTNS if purchased via East Coast
50% - Child
75% - Some fares with staff discount card.
81% - Child with some Railcard holders
88% - Some Child fares for dependant of person with staff discount card.

and probably some others I've forgotten. This gives more than 200 different fares between a station on the edge of Leeds and a Glasgow suburban station. My guess is that the total number of Morley - Bellgrove tickets sold each year is under 200.

If we assume an "s" at the end of 'combination', and that your interest depends on that word 'combinations', then I will guess that the possible and available combinations are likely to be an order of magnitude greater than merely the number of available tickets. i.e. 3 billion.

I think 3 billion may be an underestimate. Using the Morley - Bellgrove example, there are 39 intermediate stations on the shortest route by rail. Some ticket types may be split at any or all of these stations, or at any of several hundred stations on other Permitted Routes Morley - Bellgrove. My guess is that there are more than 30 billion possible combinations of fares.