Leniency on Rail card use?

[Robnw67]

My partner uses a mature student railcard to travel to college. This entitles discounted travel on trains after 9:59am. In order to ensure arrival on time, the only available train leaves at 9:57. Given that 99.9% of the journey (time and distance) will be undertaken after the 9:59am time limit, would there be any hope that those selling tickets would 'be generous' with the 9:59am rule? We know that purchasing online has no leeway. Would there be grounds for appeal if the train were more than 2 minutes late departing?

 

[island]

Before we get into that, is your partner’s fare under £12 after the reduction? If it’s £12 or more, there is no time restriction.

 

[Robnw67]

Before we get into that, is your partner’s fare under £12 after the reduction? If it’s £12 or more, there is no time restriction.

Yes - under £12.

 

[CreamNCookies]

Given that the terms and conditions state discounted travel on trains after 9:59am, 9:57am is before that time. I reckon if there were a ticket check, they would be on the lookout for people with railcards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it a stopping service? If so, it could well be worth splitting tickets at the first station the train calls at after 1000?

Also if they go daily a season ticket may be worth looking at.

 

[Robnw67]

I guess it's one of those 'caught in a trap' scenarios. The ticket is from Preston to Blackburn = £5.70. Splitting: Preston to Lostock Hall £3.10 + Lostock Hall to Blackburn £5:10 so even with the rail card, the effect of splitting the ticket results in only pennies different. If the train were scheduled 2 minutes later: £2 difference - which builds up over a college year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess it's one of those 'caught in a trap' scenarios. The ticket is from Preston to Blackburn = £5.70. Splitting: Preston to Lostock Hall £3.10 + Lostock Hall to Blackburn £5:10 so even with the rail card, the effect of splitting the ticket results in only pennies different. If the train were scheduled 2 minutes later: £2 difference - which builds up over a college year.

Fundamentally Railcards are a leisure product and are not intended for commuting (to work or education), so the trap is totally intentional. Is this daily travel? If so a season ticket might be worth investigating.

 

[Robnw67]

Fundamentally Railcards are a leisure product and are not intended for commuting (to work or education), so the trap is totally intentional. Is this daily travel? If so a season ticket might be worth investigating.

Travel is only 3 times per week and heavily dependent on Covid19 - if the college has to shut then the travel is not required for a period of 2 weeks+. It's quite a gamble to pay for a season ticket and then end up not using it half the time. I guess the only option is 'no option' and to 'suck it up'!

 

[scrapy]

The Railcard T+C's that says the Railcard is valid from 10am, there is nothing to state the train has to be scheduled to depart from 10am. So you would be well within your rights to buy a discounted ticket and use it on the 09.57 as long as it's at least 3 minutes late.

Practically though it would need to be late enough that you can say for certain it will depart after this time and if buying at Preston would probably have to wait until 10am for the machines to sell it then get to the platform. If buying online as long as you buy an non advance ticket you would be within your rights to buy for the following service as that ticket would be valid as online booking engine would probably not sell you a discounted ticket for a late running 09.57. The 09.57 would usually be formed from the 09.50 arrival from Blackpool South, so that would probably have to be at least 10 mins late at Kirkham to be sure the 09.57 would leave late.

As to your original question about if you would have grounds for appeal in a 3 minutes late train had you bought the undiscounted ticket then sadly not, although you could claim delay repay should the train be late enough.

 

[Haywain]

Travel is only 3 times per week and heavily dependent on Covid19 - if the college has to shut then the travel is not required for a period of 2 weeks+. It's quite a gamble to pay for a season ticket and then end up not using it half the time. I guess the only option is 'no option' and to 'suck it up'!

Is this just a one way trip? You are quoting the single fare and the equivalent return ticket is only 10p more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Travel is only 3 times per week and heavily dependent on Covid19 - if the college has to shut then the travel is not required for a period of 2 weeks+. It's quite a gamble to pay for a season ticket and then end up not using it half the time. I guess the only option is 'no option' and to 'suck it up'!

Season tickets can be put in for refund down to the tickets which would have been purchased if the season wasn't used. Not a lot of people seem to know that!

 

[Gloster]

I am not a ticket expert, but my understanding is that there can be derogations allowing a particular ticket or card to be used for departure earlier than it would normally be valid, but if this does not exist, then the normal rules apply. These derogations are rare and very specifically indicated. It sound unlikely that there is such a derogation, so the standard ‘after 09.59’ rule applies.

 

[Haywain]

Season tickets can be put in for refund down to the tickets which would have been purchased if the season wasn't used.

With the admin fee accounting for most of two day's fares I doubt that's a great benefit.

 

[island]

Sadly there is no “leeway”; there has to be a cutoff somewhere and unfortunately your partner has landed on the wrong side of it.

For the sake of utmost clarity, single/return tickets discounted down to below £12 by a 16-25 Railcard become valid at 10:00 (not 09:59) and are based on the actual train departure time, so if a train were to be delayed past 10:00 it could in principle allow the ticket to be used (if you could purchase it in time of course).

 

[smsm1]

Where in Preston do you stay? Could you be close enough to Lostock Hall or Bamber Bridge to e.g. walk/cycle/bus there and therefore get the railcard discount? Granted if you're north of Preston station this wouldn't be so practical depending on how much you like to cycle and what the cycle environment in Preston is like. There does appear to be an off road National Cycle Route 55 which gets you pretty close between Preston and Bamber Bridge station: https://www.cyclestreets.net/journey/71892164/

 

[skyhigh]

It's not available on this route yet, but it might we worth keeping an eye on Northern's smart flexi tickets as they will be available at some point in the not too distant future, and would offer a discount on buying anytime returns.

Flexi Season tickets

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

What is a Smart Flexi ticket?

A Smart Flexi ticket is a bulk purchase of 10 all-day tickets, offering added flexibility versus traditional season tickets. Plus, you pay for 9 tickets and get the 10th free!

Can I buy a Smart Flexi ticket for my route?

Smart Flexi tickets are currently only available for travel between the stations listed above.

We will be adding many more routes in the coming months - the product will ultimately be available at all stations and routes where you can currently buy a season ticket.

How long are my tickets valid for?

Flexi tickets are valid for up to 6 months from the date of purchase of the bundle.

How many times can I travel on each daily ticket?

A Flexi ticket allows unlimited travel on the day of activation between the origin and destination stations shown on the ticket.

Can I use my Railcard to obtain further discount?

Flexi tickets already include a 10% saving versus individual Standard Anytime Day Returns. There are no additional railcard or child discounts, or further discounts if travelling off peak or at weekends.

 

[Robnw67]

Where in Preston do you stay? Could you be close enough to Lostock Hall or Bamber Bridge to e.g. walk/cycle/bus there and therefore get the railcard discount? Granted if you're north of Preston station this wouldn't be so practical depending on how much you like to cycle and what the cycle environment in Preston is like. There does appear to be an off road National Cycle Route 55 which gets you pretty close between Preston and Bamber Bridge station: https://www.cyclestreets.net/journey/71892164/

We're on the west side of Preston - great for the guild wheel, but by the time my partner cycled to Lostock Hall - that accounts for half the journey and it would be more effective to just continue to cycle to Blackburn. Shame the classes didn't start half an hour later!

 

[Haywain]

It's not available on this route yet, but it might we worth keeping an eye on Northern's smart flexi tickets as they will be available at some point in the not too distant future, and would offer a discount on buying anytime returns.

Flexi Season tickets

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

BR Fares indicates that such a ticket is available but is priced at more than 10 times the Off Peak Day Return, so would not represent a value option in this case.

 

[Qwerty133]

While I would personally like to see small changes to such time limits on railcards so that they don't disadvantage those who live near stations with an hourly or less frequent service that happens to run just before the cut off unfortunately there is no such rule at the minute. Something along the lines of adding 'where no service is scheduled to depart the origin station in the direction of travel between 10:00 and 10:40 the railcard can be used on the service immediately before 10:00 with no minimum fare' to the terms and conditions would seemingly allow this without having much affect on commuter services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While I would personally like to see small changes to such time limits on railcards so that they don't disadvantage those who live near stations with an hourly or less frequent service that happens to run just before the cut off unfortunately there is no such rule at the minute. Something along the lines of adding 'where no service is scheduled to depart the origin station in the direction of travel between 10:00 and 10:40 the railcard can be used on the service immediately before 10:00 with no minimum fare' to the terms and conditions would seemingly allow this without having much affect on commuter services.

The Network Railcard has a few listed exemptions of that nature, I believe. But what would probably be easier would be simply to change it to be the same as when tickets cease being "Anytime only", as per the restrictions that apply to the Family card in the South East. Those restrictions are already maintained, and a flat "after 0930" could be applied where there are flows that have only Anytime fares.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Remember the old timetable when there was a 0956 (Folkestone Central) and 0958 (West) to St Pancras and posters were put up in ticket office windows saying Network railcards are strictly barred from these services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Remember the old timetable when there was a 0956 (Folkestone Central) and 0958 (West) to St Pancras and posters were put up in ticket office windows saying Network railcards are strictly barred from these services.

Interestingly there is now a long list of easements to the 1000 rule for Network Railcards:

Travel times - Network Railcard

Time and ticket restrictions. Use your Network Railcard in and around London and the South East for up to a third off Off-Peak leisure rail travel.

www.network-railcard.co.uk

Origin Station	Departure Time	Service	Easements apply:
Althorne (Essex)	09:45	Greater Anglia service to Wickford	To all destinations
Ascott-U-Wych	09:36	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Ashurst (New Forest)	09:40	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Banbury	09:39	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Battle	09:42	Southeastern service to London Charing Cross	To all destinations
Bedhampton	09:37	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Bedwyn	09:39	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Bletchley	09:52	London Northwestern Railway service to London Euston	To all destinations
Brading	09:28	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	For travel to destinations beyond Portsmouth Harbour. Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00
Brading	09:48	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	For travel to Portsmouth Harbour only
Branksome	09:57	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Broadstairs	09:59	Southeastern service to London St Pancras International	To all destinations
Bures	09:40	Greater Anglia service to Marks Tey	To all destinations
Burnham-on-Crouch	09:40	Greater Anglia service to Wickford	To all destinations
Chappel & Wakes Colne	09:46	Greater Anglia service to Marks Tey	To all destinations
Charlbury	09:41	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Cranbrook	08:36	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Dorchester South	09:33	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Dovercourt	09:30	Greater Anglia service to Manningtree	To all destinations
Downham Market	09:58	Great Northern service to London Kings Cross	To all destinations
Elsenham	09:49	Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.	To all destinations
Evesham	09:35	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Exeter Central	08:27	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Exeter St Davids	08:23	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To Exeter Central, Pinhoe, Cranbrook, Whimple and Feniton only
Feniton	08:47	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Great Chesterford	09:34	Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.	To all destinations
Hanborough	09:48	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Harwich International	09:33	Greater Anglia service to Manningtree	To all destinations
Harwich Town	09:28	Greater Anglia service to Manningtree	To all destinations
Hastings	09:29	Southeastern service to London Charing Cross	To all destinations
Hastings	09:50	Southeastern service to London Charing Cross	To all destinations
Heyford	09:53	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Hilsea	09:32	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Holton Heath	09:56	South West Trains service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Honeybourne	09:11	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Honiton	09:55	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Hungerford	09:44	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Kelvedon	09:52	Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.	To all destinations
Kingham	09:31	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Kings Lynn	09:44	Great Northern service to London Kings Cross	To all destinations
Kings Sutton	09:45	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Kintbury	09:49	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Lake	09:21	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	To all destinations
Lake	09:41	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	To all destinations
London Liverpool Street	09:48	Greater Anglia service to Braintree	To all destinations
London Liverpool Street	09:58	Greater Anglia service to Cambridge	To all destinations
Lymington Pier	09:44	South Western Railway service to Brockenhurst	To all destinations
Lymington Town	09:46	South Western Railway service to Brockenhurst	To all destinations
Margate	09:53	Southeastern service to London St Pancras International	To all destinations
Marks Tey	09:56	Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.	To all destinations
Milton Keynes Central	09:47	London Northwestern Railway service to London Euston	To all destinations
Mistley	09:45	Greater Anglia service to Manningtree	To all destinations
Moreton (Dorset)	09:39	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Moreton-in-Marsh	09:23	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Newbury	09:56	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Newport (Essex)	09:43	Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.	To all destinations
North Fambridge	09:51	Greater Anglia service to Wickford	To all destinations
Parkstone	09:54	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Pershore	08:47	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Pinhoe	08:32	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Rowlands Castle	09:46	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Ryde Esplanade	09:40	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	For travel to destinations beyond Portsmouth Harbour. Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00
Ryde St John’s Road	09:35	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	For travel to destinations beyond Portsmouth Harbour. Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00
Ryde St John’s Road	09:55	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	For travel to Portsmouth Harbour only
Salisbury	09:47	South Western Railway service to Exeter St Davids	To all destinations
Sandown	09:24	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	For travel to destinations beyond Portsmouth Harbour. Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00
Sandown	09:44	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	For travel to Portsmouth Harbour only
Shanklin	09:18	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	For travel to destinations beyond Portsmouth Harbour. Departure from Portsmouth must be at or after 10:00
Shanklin	09:38	Island Line service to Ryde Pier Head	For travel to Portsmouth Harbour only
Shelford	09:23	Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.	To all destinations
Shelford	09:23	Greater Anglia service to London Liverpool Street.	To all destinations
South Woodham Ferrers	09:56	Greater Anglia service to Wickford	To all destinations
Southminster	09:36	Greater Anglia service to Wickford	To all destinations
St Leonards Warrior Square	09:32	Southeastern service to London Charing Cross	To all destinations
St Leonards Warrior Square	09:53	Southeastern service to London Charing Cross	To all destinations
Stratford	09:55	Greater Anglia service to Braintree	To all destinations
Sturry	09:58	Southeastern service to London Charing Cross	To all destinations
Sudbury (Suffolk)	09:33	Greater Anglia service to Marks Tey	To all destinations
Tackley	09:58	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Totton	09:45	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Tring	09:59	London Northwestern Railway service to Milton Keynes Central	To all destinations
Upwey	09:24	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Wadhurst	09:58	Southeastern service to London Charing Cross	To all destinations
Wareham	09:53	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Watlington	09:51	Great Northern service to London Kings Cross	To all destinations
West St Leonards	09:57	Southeastern service to London Charing Cross	To all destinations
Weymouth	09:20	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Whimple	08:41	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Wool	09:45	South Western Railway service to London Waterloo	To all destinations
Worcester Foregate Street	08:26	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Worcester Shrub Hill	08:38	Great Western Railway service to London Paddington	To all destinations
Wrabness	09:39	Greater Anglia service to Manningtree	To all destinations

 

[Argyle 1980]

Bletchleyite the new timetable has been XX00 Folkestone central and XX02 West to St Pancras for a while now so all good on that front.
I'm surprised the 0959 Dover Priory to Charing X via Folkestone/Tonbridge wasn't included in those easements though.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I am not a ticket expert, but my understanding is that there can be derogations allowing a particular ticket or card to be used for departure earlier than it would normally be valid

It’s a long time since I’ve needed to check this, but my distant memory is that those sorts of derogations only really existed on routes with extremely sparse services, but one of which departed its start point slightly before the normal railcard validity time. For some reason I seem to remember Queen Street to Oban being one, but that was in the 80s

 

[alistairlees]

It’s a long time since I’ve needed to check this, but my distant memory is that those sorts of derogations only really existed on routes with extremely sparse services, but one of which departed its start point slightly before the normal railcard validity time. For some reason I seem to remember Queen Street to Oban being one, but that was in the 80s

Correct. There’s no need for it on routes with trains every 30 mins or so.

 

[30907]

It’s a long time since I’ve needed to check this, but my distant memory is that those sorts of derogations only really existed on routes with extremely sparse services, but one of which departed its start point slightly before the normal railcard validity time. For some reason I seem to remember Queen Street to Oban being one, but that was in the 80s

And often (as with Offpeak fares generally) when longstanding "offpeak trains" have been retimed by a few minutes to and become "peak trains" (excuse shorthand, I know there are no such things).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bletchleyite the new timetable has been XX00 Folkestone central and XX02 West to St Pancras for a while now so all good on that front.
I'm surprised the 0959 Dover Priory to Charing X via Folkestone/Tonbridge wasn't included in those easements though.

Perhaps Tweet them and let them know. I suspect they only go in when people complain about them.