• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Legal definition of "first class"?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Taunton

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
12,325
going back to the 1970s on the Waterloo-Exeter.........some of the MkI second class compartment stock was three-a-side first class converted to four-a-side second class by locking the armrests upright. Only other difference was they removed the curtains
I think they may have originally been second class. With the Mk1 stock, the LMR, ER and SCR had even second class compartments with three a side provision, with raisable armrests where theoretically if the train was full you were meant to do so and sit four a side. However the seat reservation tabs were only three a side. On the WR and SR second class was four a side with no armrests and reservation tabs four a side. If stock was transferred to the WR/SR the armrests were "sewn up".

After the end of steam locomotives on the SR they did away with steam heat stock, so the steam heat Warship-hauled Exeter services in the late 60s/early 70s had stock provided by the WR. When these locos were withdrawn and replaced by electric heat Class 33, additional ETH-capable stock was needed which the WR and SR did not have available. Most of the later build 1960s Mk1 dual heat stock had been deployed on the LMR AC lines from Euston, the only major ETH operation at the time, and as they were replaced by Mk 2 stock they were sent to the Waterloo-Exeter line, and the aforementioned sewing up took place. If they had been left as they were an extra coach would have been required, and the Class 33 performance was very marginal. As it was, their electric heat was invariably turned off by the driver in the winter when ascending Honiton bank and the other notable climbs on this line. It got turned back on going down the other side.

Yes it was the case that on much of BR both first and second class compartments were thus three a side. It was just the latter were about 6" narrower, one more compartment per coach.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

KingJ

Member
Joined
23 Dec 2012
Messages
200
What you're essentially paying for on GTR is a better chance of a seat and maybe access to a power socket. I wouldn't be surprised to see first class on GTR and Southeastern disappear or become "convertible" in the next few decades, as is possible with 700s, in order to maximise capacity across their networks.

The SouthEastern Invitation to Tender has specified that the new Franchisee must remove First Class within 18 months of the franchise starting (section 5.10.3, page 54);

The Department requires a Franchisee that will remove First Class accommodation on all Passenger Services within 18 months of the Start Date.
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
A passenger who holds a ticket which confirms their contract to be carried on a certain journey by rail, in a specified class of accommodation, on the train on which they are actually travelling, may, at their discretion, choose to travel in a lower class of accommodation with impunity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top