Left stranded by TPE

[RJ]

However if we (Northern / TPE) believe an offence to be deliberate we reserve the right to not sell the Standard Anytime ticket and submit a TI report. Knowing that youve loet your railcard and not telling the onboard staff before boarding may sway the decision from selling a ticket to not selling it


Sorry that was a reply to yorkie earlier

I explained to the member of staff why I didn't have a railcard - he said he'd have my story checked out at Liverpool and offered the excess, which I immediately offered payment for. The sticking point was the dispute over acceptable payment methods.

 

[Lewisham2221]

But in this instance it appears that the RPO only got shirty when RJ attempted to pay with by alternative payment method. I recall reading in an earlier thread that a TOC should still accept a postal order etc if is the only method of payment a passenger has. Given the circumstances, it seems unreasonable for the RPO to offer RJ the opportunity to purchase an excess and then suddenly withdraw that offer, accuse him of being aggressive/abusive and call the BTP. That said, RJ could have helped himself, potentially, by attempting to purchase a ticket at Oxford Road, or speaking to the guard before boarding the TPE service back to Liverpool.

 

[Ferret]

TOCs have free will not to enforce Byelaw 18. Certain TOCs specifically don't, where pay train services are concerned. The language the RPO used "got on our train without the means to pay" suggested he expected a prosecution the RoR 1889 to go ahead.

At least you have a simple defence to that one!

 

[RJ]

To the OP - could you not have purchased a ticket back to Liverpool to collect your mislaid property at Oxford Road??

No idea - I don't know the station. I arrived on one train, crossed over the bridge and boarded another. The option existed to pay on board the TPE service, which I took up in line with the rules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I read it that he managed to travel Liverpool - Manchester Oxford Road without a valid ticket, and also a second occasion between Manchester and Liverpool, and on the second occasion, he was caught by a TPE Revenue Officer.

Bottom line is, if the ticket was discounted, and no railcard was presented to the RPO, the offence is seemingly committed.

How can one be "caught" without a valid ticket on a pay train? The guard/RPO offered me an excess, I offered payment which was rejected and would also have been willing to pay for a new ticket instead of the return I held being vandalised. Byelaw 18 is not enforced on pay trains, so what offence was committed?

Don't be offended by this question, but does your experience arise from Penalty Fares areas? Of course, I will concede that I'm wrong if you can produce anything relevant in black and white to that effect, but quoting Byelaw 18 which isn't enforced on pay trains (evidently here as I was offered a ticket) isn't very convincing?

 

[Monty]

I'm not sure I'd know how to process them either, if I'm honest!

Same here, I'd not received any training on how to process a postal order when I was with revenue protection. In fact I would almost be inclined to think it was not acceptable method of payment either. I shall double check with work tomorrow to see of this is the case.

 

[yorkie]

Same here, I've not received any training on how to process a postal order when I was with revenue. In fact I would almost be inclined to think the were not acceptable method of payment either. I shall double check with work tomorrow to see of this is the case.

Well, we know it is the case, it's a question of checking whether all TOCs management know it is the case I think I know the answer to that (especially given my bizarre conversation with TPE Customer Relations this evening )

 

[soil]

I take it from your OP that you had a 'normal' means of payment that you could have used?

I think it is reasonable in the circumstance where you have a valid ticket that they say is not valid, to make life as difficult for them as possible.

However it seems that here that you had no valid ticket and should have just paid up quietly rather than make a scene with your fiddly payment method. I take it the ticket would have cost about £10?

Obviously they should have accepted your payment, but I think you are in a weak position while on a train to try and annoy them with postal orders (which cost money, so serve no purpose AFAIK) to pay for the ticket you were required to purchase.

 

[maniacmartin]

I take it from your OP that you had a 'normal' means of payment that you could have used?

Wasn't the normal means of payment stuck with the lost railcard at Liverpool station?

 

[soil]

I thought it was a 'ticket wallet' that was left at Liverpool.

 

[Anvil1984]

No idea - I don't know the station. I arrived on one train, crossed over the bridge and boarded another. The option existed to pay on board the TPE service, which I took up in line with the rules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


How can one be "caught" without a valid ticket on a pay train? The guard/RPO offered me an excess, I offered payment which was rejected and would also have been willing to pay for a new ticket instead of the return I held being vandalised. Byelaw 18 is not enforced on pay trains, so what offence was committed?

Don't be offended by this question, but does your experience arise from Penalty Fares areas? Of course, I will concede that I'm wrong if you can produce anything relevant in black and white to that effect, but quoting Byelaw 18 which isn't enforced on pay trains (evidently here as I was offered a ticket) isn't very convincing?

Can I ask why you keep using the term paytrain? It is not applicable in this situation and no operators operate under the historical paytrain model where you could buy a full range of tickets without restriction. Yes you can usually purchase onboard (full range when purchasing from an unstaffed station / limited range from staffed station) and no penalty fares are applicable but railway bylaw 18 can be applied

We can withdraw the ticket for investigation (or vandalise it in the terms used above) and mark it no railcard held submit it to the relevent department to make the decision whether it is in breach of bylaws which includes 18

 

[yorkie]

I think that the original post may not have been understood by some contributors. That is causing confusion and detracting from the real issues.

I had hoped my posts #25 and #30 would get us back on topic and enable us to focus on the real issues (see my post #9) which are that training by First TPE is woefully inadequate in certain areas.

I believe there are major concerns with some of First TPEs policies, but sadly we do not have an effective Regulator or a knowledgeable and truly independent passenger watchdog to ensure that Train Companies such as First TPE train their staff adequately.

 

[RJ]

I take it from your OP that you had a 'normal' means of payment that you could have used?

I think it is reasonable in the circumstance where you have a valid ticket that they say is not valid, to make life as difficult for them as possible.

However it seems that here that you had no valid ticket and should have just paid up quietly rather than make a scene with your fiddly payment method. I take it the ticket would have cost about £10?

Obviously they should have accepted your payment, but I think you are in a weak position while on a train to try and annoy them with postal orders (which cost money, so serve no purpose AFAIK) to pay for the ticket you were required to purchase.

My cards were in the ticket wallet I was off to collect. I offered a valid means of payment in what was an unforeseen situation, so there should not have been an issue. Whilst I have openly admitted that I carry them to deter staff in the wrong from trying to sell me unnecessary tickets, in this case it was an unexpected situation and they acted as "emergency" payment.

 

[Monty]

Well, we know it is the case, it's a question of checking whether all TOCs management know it is the case I think I know the answer to that (especially given my bizarre conversation with TPE Customer Relations this evening )

Well you learn something new everyday! Though I am rather interested how RJ came across some National Travel Tokens, the councils normally tend issue them to the more mature or vulnerable residents.

 

[RJ]

Well you learn something new everyday! Though I am rather interested how RJ came across some National Travel Tokens, the councils normally tend issue them to the more mature or vulnerable residents.

Vulnerable may also extend to young people / students who may be excluded from accessing transport services to some extent owing to limited employment opportunities in some jurisdictions.

 

[Monty]

Vulnerable may also extend to young people / students who may be excluded from accessing transport services to some extent owing to limited employment opportunities in some jurisdictions.

I didn't mean anything by it RJ I was genuinely curious. I do not think the councils down my way do the same for students as I've only ever seen the elderly or persons with physical or mental disabilities issued with them. Anyway thanks for letting me know.

 

[RJ]

Can I ask why you keep using the term paytrain? It is not applicable in this situation and no operators operate under the historical paytrain model where you could buy a full range of tickets without restriction. Yes you can usually purchase onboard (full range when purchasing from an unstaffed station / limited range from staffed station) and no penalty fares are applicable but railway bylaw 18 can be applied

We can withdraw the ticket for investigation (or vandalise it in the terms used above) and mark it no railcard held submit it to the relevent department to make the decision whether it is in breach of bylaws which includes 18

It was used as a term by some members of staff within a TOC I worked for trains whereby tickets were offered for sale on board, but if the term is out of context here, I apologise and will refrain from using it further. I'm not sure how correct you are about no operators selling the full range of tickets on board without restriction however.

It does not change the fact that TPE openly advertise the sale of an undiscounted ticket on board for people who pass a ticket office or hold a discounted ticket without the appropriate railcard. Can I ask how Byelaw 18 can be enforced given this advertisement?

 

[maniacmartin]

It does not change the fact that TPE openly advertise the sale of an undiscounted ticket on board for people who pass a ticket office or hold a discounted ticket without the appropriate railcard.

Thank you for reminding us of that. I suspect that many posters will be unaware that some TOCs advertise this on posters and other official literature.

 

[RJ]

Thank you for reminding us of that. I suspect that many posters will be unaware that some TOCs advertise this on posters and other official literature.

It is indeed an important element in this situation. Plus it is (or was) recognised by ATOC within The Manual that there are some TOCs that do not enforce Byelaw 18.

Problem is that some people without the appropriate local knowledge pick up bits and pieces of legislation, think it is uniformly applied across the country then come down like a ton of bricks on posters with inappropriate advice/accusations!

 

[Anvil1984]

It was used as a term by some members of staff within a TOC I worked for trains whereby tickets were offered for sale on board, but if the term is out of context here, I apologise and will refrain from using it further. I'm not sure how correct you are about no operators selling the full range of tickets on board without restriction however.

It does not change the fact that TPE openly advertise the sale of an undiscounted ticket on board for people who pass a ticket office or hold a discounted ticket without the appropriate railcard. Can I ask how Byelaw 18 can be enforced given this advertisement?

Quite simple regarding the Byelaw 18 as we see it many a time on this forum. If a conductor has suspected a ticketing irregularity has taken place then he will submit a report and the relevant department will decide if theres enough evidence to take forward a clear fradulent case under byelaw 5 or fall into the easy option which is a byelaw 18 offence.

The only operators who allow you to purchase tickets from a staffed station without restriction are Grand Central and possibly Hull Trains (ive heard contradicting reports). The rules changed back I think only less than 10 years ago where it was enforced amongst train companies that you must buy on the station. Paytrain no longer exists and all operators (with the exception of GC and HT) adhere to the NRCoC hoewever more leniency is usually given in extreme circumstances and usully even moreso when passengers approach you and say they have had a problem instead of just sitting down and hoping to talk their way out of it (not say that you did but have had plenty experience of it).

Sorry this is getting off topic

 

[RJ]

Quite simple regarding the Byelaw 18 as we see it many a time on this forum. If a conductor has suspected a ticketing irregularity has taken place then he will submit a report and the relevant department will decide if theres enough evidence to take forward a clear fradulent case under byelaw 5 or fall into the easy option which is a byelaw 18 offence.

If we're talking about this forum, it was highlighted in one thread that there was a conspicuous lack of TPE cases. It is not surprising, given that they will sell tickets on board, unlike TOCs in Penalty Fare areas. I've had a look around and where they do prosecute, it looks like they do so under the RoR 1889, which tallies with what's in their publicity.

Can you personally confirm that TPE enforce Byelaw 18 as a matter of course?

 

[Top Cat]

SWT Commercial Guards will take a postal order as a valid means of payment - it is now the only occasion on which the 'cheque' method of payment is used on the Avantix machine.
Additionally please bear in mind that some Guards will probably struggle to give change from a £50 Travellers Cheque for a relatively small fare. Additionally, I know that it is a SWT requirement for a passport to be presented/details recorded on the back for us to be able to accept this as a valid means of payment on board a train.
Guards do have to put up with all kinds of excuses when passengers are unable to produce a ticket that has been purchased with a railcard. You were lucky if the Guard had initially agreed to excess the ticket, as the correct course of action is for you to be sold a brand new undiscounted ticket as per the NRCofC.
A polite request for the Guard to speak to their TOC's Retail Helpdesk might also help to diffuse the situation regarding disputed methods of payment.

 

[the sniper]

A polite request for the Guard to speak to their TOC's Retail Helpdesk might also help to diffuse the situation regarding disputed methods of payment.

Just out of curiosity, how many TOCs have these? My TOC doesn't have one... You're lucky if you can get through to control half the time!

 

[RJ]

SWT Commercial Guards will take a postal order as a valid means of payment - it is now the only occasion on which the 'cheque' method of payment is used on the Avantix machine.
Additionally please bear in mind that some Guards will probably struggle to give change from a £50 Travellers Cheque for a relatively small fare. Additionally, I know that it is a SWT requirement for a passport to be presented/details recorded on the back for us to be able to accept this as a valid means of payment on board a train.
Guards do have to put up with all kinds of excuses when passengers are unable to produce a ticket that has been purchased with a railcard. You were lucky if the Guard had initially agreed to excess the ticket, as the correct course of action is for you to be sold a brand new undiscounted ticket as per the NRCofC.
A polite request for the Guard to speak to their TOC's Retail Helpdesk might also help to diffuse the situation regarding disputed methods of payment.

I was willing to pay the excess without protest and would have bought a new single ticket without any protest - I paid up and hoped that would be the end of it - but the RPO decided to go down the road he went down and topped it off with telling me I'd never work on the railways again and report me for prosecution - after he had told the police a load of lies. I'm going all the way with this one - if TPE feel they can repudiate the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and Ticketing & Settlement Agreement as they please, to the point where I've been left stranded without the ticket I had bought or any paperwork, they've got another thing coming.

I'm also unimpressed with the British Transport Police. They responded to a call telling them that I was an aggressive fare evader. When it came to it, they could see I was very softly spoken and watched me offer payment to the RPO time and time again - yet decided to side with the RPO who was continuing to claim I had previously been abusive to him. After a barrage of BS, the officer admitted that he wasn't "up" on railway laws, which I could tell from the outset when he claimed that I was legally obliged to give the inspector my DOB under the ROR 1889. All the officer did was cater to the every demand of the ticket inspector and accept everything he said as gospel - then tried to ditch me on the concourse after the TPE train had gone back out. I don't understand why they insisted on staying when they saw I wasn't being aggressive to the man.

I'll hold fire on passing further comment on the incident for the time being - rest assured I will be taking the matter up through the proper channels.

 

[Ferret]

It was used as a term by some members of staff within a TOC I worked for trains whereby tickets were offered for sale on board, but if the term is out of context here, I apologise and will refrain from using it further. I'm not sure how correct you are about no operators selling the full range of tickets on board without restriction however.

It does not change the fact that TPE openly advertise the sale of an undiscounted ticket on board for people who pass a ticket office or hold a discounted ticket without the appropriate railcard. Can I ask how Byelaw 18 can be enforced given this advertisement?

Hmmmmm, a certain long distance operator with 4 and 5 car trains also allows undiscounted tickets to be bought on board. It also still prosecutes under byelaw 18... and one such occasion will be failure to produce a railcard with a ticket! If TPE have issued literature to state that they don't, then by all means I'd like to see it!

It's not that I want to give inappropriate advice or make false accusations - but I also don't want to see you come a cropper! In that situation, I'd have approached the Guard at Oxford Rd and told him I was returning to Liverpool to collect my railcard! I'd wager there's a good chance you may not have even been asked to pay an excess.

I note the failure to issue a receipt etc for the tickets held! An interesting training issue there for sure!

 

[Top Cat]

My advice to any passenger who does not have a valid ticket before joining a train is to speak to the Guard before getting on the train, or to find the Guard immediately when getting on the train and certainly before sitting down. The vast majority of Guards will usually try and help a passenger if the initial approach is made by the passenger. One further thought - do TPE issue 'unpaid fare notices'? This is another way of allowing a passenger to travel and sort out a dispute later by the passenger then appealing the UFN.

 

[Ferret]

My advice to any passenger who does not have a valid ticket before joining a train is to speak to the Guard before getting on the train, or to find the Guard immediately when getting on the train and certainly before sitting down. The vast majority of Guards will usually try and help a passenger if the initial approach is made by the passenger. One further thought - do TPE issue 'unpaid fare notices'? This is another way of allowing a passenger to travel and sort out a dispute later by the passenger then appealing the UFN.

Yes, this is something that perplexed me a little! I've just looked at Avantix and the options it gives me for payment are 'Cash', 'Cheque', 'Warrant' and 'Card'. There is 'other' too, but it won't let me select that. The cheque option then asks for a sort code - is there one on a traveller's cheque?! Can't claim to have seen one of those for many a year - probably when my Dad used to get them for holidays in Spain about 20 years ago!

Still, the upshot is that faced with a customer who wishes to pay but with a method I can't process via Avantix, I'd be looking at suggesting a UFN - so why didn't the Guard here do that?

Btw, I assume transport tokens would be processed as cash as we do with PTTs?

 

[maniacmartin]

Nowadays postal orders do contain sort codes and account numbers and can be paid into bank accounts. They are effectively cheques drawn on the post office's bank account. You can of course also redeem them for cash at post offices

 

[Fare-Cop]

I
[*]TPE operate a Penalty Fare Scheme (indeed all of the TOCs do)

It is true to say that the TOCs operating the journey that the Ops post refers to do have approved Penalty Fares schemes, but is not true to say that ALL the TOCs do so.

There are certainly no PF schemes in relation to Arriva Trains Wales or Crosscountry services

 

[AlexS]

It was used as a term by some members of staff within a TOC I worked for trains whereby tickets were offered for sale on board, but if the term is out of context here, I apologise and will refrain from using it further. I'm not sure how correct you are about no operators selling the full range of tickets on board without restriction however.

It does not change the fact that TPE openly advertise the sale of an undiscounted ticket on board for people who pass a ticket office or hold a discounted ticket without the appropriate railcard. Can I ask how Byelaw 18 can be enforced given this advertisement?

Paytrain as a brand historically was a BR system introduced in the late 1960s for local services to reduce cost on branchlines. It essentially involved the guard on board selling tickets for local journeys only from an Almex or similar machine as per a bus, with the local booking offices being closed. The tickets weren't valid for longer distance journeys and if you wanted to travel further you had to visit a booking office at your interchange station to 're-book'.

HOWEVER!

It is apparently still in use, but only considered to be for services where the only available option is to pay on board, I would suggest, because several companies, to cite Network Rail and Greater Anglia as examples, there's probably more, still use the term for services where the only option is to pay on board as opposed to where you have the choice of a booking office.

 

[Monty]

It is apparently still in use, but only considered to be for services where the only available option is to pay on board, I would suggest, because several companies, to cite Network Rail and Greater Anglia as examples, there's probably more, still use the term for services where the only option is to pay on board as opposed to where you have the choice of a booking office.

I have to confess, before the Hounslow loop became part of the penalty fares scheme staff always refered to services on that line as 'paytrains' even if that was not the official designation.