Leeds Trams?

[dlj83]

Maybe a trackless tram could be established in Leeds?

 

[Meerkat]

I assume trolley buses would go at bus speed, and not the painfully slow tram speeds?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Maybe a trackless tram could be established in Leeds?

Isn't "trackless tram" just a "sexed-up" name for a trolleybus?

The system in that video is just a gadgetbahn (gadgetbus?). There's no need to reinvent the wheel, just pick the routes and build the damn thing.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

I'd be more concerned with them making better use of what they have at the moment.

Halifax connections to Bradford Leeds, York and Manchester are OK, fairly regular workings but to Huddersfield and Wakefield !

I am sure there are other examples. Sort those out before worrying about Leeds.

 

[DarloRich]

I would LOVE to see trams in Leeds. I don't believe this proposal will happen in any form beyond a few extra branded buses. As for trolley buses......................

Craynoning for moment: just use a similar line structure as proposed for the 2005 plan but including the park and ride sites & Eland Road & the main station ( perhaps move the bus and taxi stands out and use for trams.

The West Yorkshire mayor certainly isn’t interested so a good start for Rishi to save some money in West Yorkshire.

I suspect it is more that this is just an unfunded wish list that is going to cause problems for the local mayor as they will be expected to deliver this without the funds to do so. Labour will now have to respond and explain why they aren't delivering this or find funds to do so cutting other programmes. The fact posters here cant see this nonsense for what it is shows how easy it for this kind of guff to stick!

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

I suspect it is more that this is just an unfunded wish list that is going to cause problems for the local mayor as they will be expected to deliver this without the funds to do so. Labour will now have to respond and explain why they aren't delivering this or find funds to do so cutting other programmes. The fact posters here cant see this nonsense for what it is shows how easy it for this kind of guff to stick!

As a WY resident I can assure you that Tracy Babin needs absolutely no incentive from anybody to do completely sweet FA

 

[D6130]

As a WY resident I can assure you that Tracy Babin needs absolutely no incentive from anybody to do completely sweet FA

Yes....sadly she has singularly failed to live up to any of her promises apart from the £2 bus fares. A pity, as she seemed to be more active as an MP.

 

[DarloRich]

As a WY resident I can assure you that Tracy Babin needs absolutely no incentive from anybody to do completely sweet FA

as a non WY resident ( but regular visitor) the £2 bus fare and eligibility zone is very handy! ( i KNOW this has been extended nationwide but it was a very good idea and to cover all of the mayoral area was a great idea)

I will use a bus now. I wouldn't before.

BTW - what activities/deliverables did you expect to see from the mayor?

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

as a non WY resident ( but regular visitor) the £2 bus fare and eligibility zone is very handy! ( i KNOW this has been extended nationwide but it was a very good idea and to cover all of the mayoral area was a great idea)

I will use a bus now. I wouldn't before.

BTW - what activities/deliverables did you expect to see from the mayor?

Her 10 manifesto pledges are still up there if you're interested.

I would hazard a guess that she hasn't actually achieved a great deal of what she promised.

I realise she won't be the 1st or last politician we can say that about.

 

[DarloRich]

Her 10 manifesto pledges are still up there if you're interested.

i will take a look - thanks.

I have just had a look: 4 measurable pledges ( housing, police, jobs for young, appoint an inclusion champion) the rest vague. Are you sure she hasn't, for instance, delivered

• "keeping women and girls safe at the heart of my policing plan" or
• "Support local businesses and be a champion for our regional economy" or "
• "Prioritise skills and training to ensure everyone in West Yorkshire has the skills they need to secure work"

Which if the measurable commitments have failed? Are they on target to be delivered by the end of her term?

PS - note in media interviews she promised work to start on a mass transit system for Leeds before the end of her term. That isn't on her pledge list mind!

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

i will take a look - thanks.

I have just had a look: 4 measurable pledges ( housing, police, jobs for young, appoint an inclusion champion) the rest vague. Are you sure she hasn't, for instance, delivered

• "keeping women and girls safe at the heart of my policing plan" or
• "Support local businesses and be a champion for our regional economy" or "
• "Prioritise skills and training to ensure everyone in West Yorkshire has the skills they need to secure work"

Which if the measurable commitments have failed? Are they on target to be delivered by the end of her term?

PS - note in media interviews she promised work to start on a mass transit system for Leeds before the end of her term. That isn't on her pledge list mind!

All a bit woolly aren't they, obviously deliberately so, that way they can't be measured!

I think she said that she would bring busses back into local control I hope she is successful with that.

It never ceases to amaze me why we can't have integrated local transport in the UK as they seem to manage successfully in Germany etc.

It doesn't necessarily need to be under LA control, just integrated.

One thing she is well known for is how she failed to support the teacher in the Batley grammar row, but that's way off topic so I won't go there.

 

[DarloRich]

I think she said that she would bring busses back into local control I hope she is successful with that.

It never ceases to amaze me why we can't have integrated local transport in the UK as they seem to manage successfully in Germany etc.

i would hope that happens by the end of her term. That is the most visible commitment beyond building a tram line!

 

[YorksLad12]

Craynoning for moment: just use a similar line structure as proposed for the 2005 plan but including the park and ride sites & Eland Road & the main station ( perhaps move the bus and taxi stands out and use for trams.

The buses moved out ages ago; the taxis and moving to outside the station once the remedial work underneath the station is completed (2025, last I heard), and New Station street will be fully pedestrianised "for safety and security reasons" (said Network Rail). You might get them into the revamped City Square though.

I have just had a look: 4 measurable pledges ( housing, police, jobs for young, appoint an inclusion champion) the rest vague. Are you sure she hasn't, for instance, delivered

• "keeping women and girls safe at the heart of my policing plan" or
• "Support local businesses and be a champion for our regional economy" or "
• "Prioritise skills and training to ensure everyone in West Yorkshire has the skills they need to secure work"

Which if the measurable commitments have failed? Are they on target to be delivered by the end of her term?

PS - note in media interviews she promised work to start on a mass transit system for Leeds before the end of her term. That isn't on her pledge list mind!

For transparency: I used to work there. Mass Transit was always going to be a two-term project just to get started because of the timescales, consultations, business case reports, etc. Safety of women and girls campaigns are running. Bus franchising might be approved by WYCA next March, before her first term ends - a term that is only three years instead of the usual four because of the pandemic (though I never quite understood why). When I left, they were doing well on jobs and Police recruitment and were appointing an inclusivity champion. More succeses than failures. But: it's never really about deliverables, it's about how you feel about things - hence Labour's pre-General Election question: "How do you feel after 13 years of Tory rule?"

 

[DarloRich]

For transparency: I used to work there. Mass Transit was always going to be a two-term project just to get started because of the timescales, consultations, business case reports, etc. Safety of women and girls campaigns are running. Bus franchising might be approved by WYCA next March, before her first term ends - a term that is only three years instead of the usual four because of the pandemic (though I never quite understood why). When I left, they were doing well on jobs and Police recruitment and were appointing an inclusivity champion. More succeses than failures. But: it's never really about deliverables, it's about how you feel about things - hence Labour's pre-General Election question: "How do you feel after 13 years of Tory rule?"

that is good to hear - i was a little confused by the view that little had been achieved by the mayoralty.

 

[Bantamzen]

Is there even a current plan for a “Leeds Tram”?

I thought it was now “West Yorkshire Mass Transit” which to be honest I think the mayor only came up with so she can spend all her term complaining that the Tories wouldn’t fund the ludicrously large scheme and therefore actually do nothing.

Currently the "West Yorkshire Mass Transit Vision 2040" doesn't commit to any particular type, suggesting anything from mass transit buses right up to tram-train. The thing is though that the bus version was tried on the 72 Leeds-Bradford route for a while using Wright Streetcar bendy buses. It didn't work very well, partly because they were just unreliable, partly because the seating layout was a joke, partly because standing on them was actually a bit perilous (I once found myself attending to a host who had fallen badly and required an ambulance to come to their aid), but mostly because frequencies weren't really high enough and they lost so much time in traffic.

The actual vision document (linked here as a pdf) shows that some of the routes are planned to use existing rail alignments and so would require tram or more likely tram-train operation. This of course puts the potential cost up a lot, and will mean that unless work starts pretty soon (i.e. next couple of years), 2040 would be ambitious to say the least. As much as I would love to see a mass transit system across West Yorkshire, a county-wide network seems highly unlikely in 15 years or so. Priority should probably be given to the sections of the proposed network that isn't currently connected to heavy rail, so north / north east Leeds, Leeds Bradford Airport, Spen Valley (although this might end up being a bit isolated if not built with connections beyond to Leeds or Bradford).

However this is Yorkshire, and this is the North of England so expectations remain considerably lower than desires. The joke around these parts is that the most we can expect is a new set of tyres for the 840 Whitby Coastliner...

 

[YorksLad12]

The safety of women and girls campaigns are a bit of a joke to be honest. Laudable as the intent is, a few messages on bus station and bus stop destination boards are not going to make much of a difference.

We're drifting off topic, but there was more to it than that, such as the safety feedback tool on the MCard mobile app. I'm surprised there isn't anything happening now, given that the nights are drawing in.

 

[Andyh82]

My feeling is that she has fallen into the trap of only being known for complaining about central government, much more so that someone like Andy Burnham who doesn’t just play party politics.

It’d say 75% of times she appears on the local news, it’s her demanding that the north deserves better, or demanding that central government funds something, or complaining about Transpennine Express

Hardly ever do you hear about something that she’s implemented. And if she has no funds to implement anything, what’s the point of the role?

I don’t think we’ve ever got an explanation for why the Leeds Park & Ride was axed at the weekend. The fact a stink wasn’t kicked up suggests it was signed off by the combined authority,

 

[317 forever]

Maybe a trackless tram could be established in Leeds?

They had trackless trams in Leeds a few years ago on route 4 then route 72

 

[Class15]

From a train bias point of view of course, but heavy rail wouldn't cope with 10 minute frequency

A reason please? The NLL manages 5 minute frequencies when there’s no freight.

 

[Farigiraf]

A reason please? The NLL manages 5 minute frequencies when there’s no freight.

Fair enough, but I don't think the West Yorkshire council can reach levels of organisation that TfL can.
If you restore some old freight lines in the area (if there are any) an overground-style railway could be feasible but would take away the city centre travel, unless you put a train on the high street like Japan!

 

[MattRat]

Surely the thing we have learnt from trying to reinstate trams in Victorian cities is that it is only "cost-effective" as part of a major urban renewal programme.
Sheffield, Edinburgh, probably others, went massively over-budget because you absolutely have to replace virtuallly all the in-road infrastructure, and nobody really knows where it all is - or what the possibly redundant things they come across are. "Rail" costs end up being quite a small proportion of a completely un-knowable total, which is why politicians can't bring themselves to commit to doing it.

Of course it brings long-term benefits (if the pipes and cables are done right) but nobody will add the value of that really worthwhile gain into the equation. Of course trams should be done where the traffic flows and other circumstances justify it, but it has to be done recognising all the benefits that will follow, and accepting the costs of getting there.
Hence I very much doubt that a scheme would be built - in full anyway.

What kind of prices are we talking? Would it be cheaper to either have elevated track or maybe even be underground?

 

[quantinghome]

Yes....sadly she has singularly failed to live up to any of her promises apart from the £2 bus fares. A pity, as she seemed to be more active as an MP.

What you are seeing is the constraints placed on the role by central government. The mayor can't click her fingers and reregulate the buses. She has to go through processes which have been established by others.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

My feeling is that she has fallen into the trap of only being known for complaining about central government, much more so that someone like Andy Burnham who doesn’t just play party politics.

It’d say 75% of times she appears on the local news, it’s her demanding that the north deserves better, or demanding that central government funds something, or complaining about Transpennine Express

Hardly ever do you hear about something that she’s implemented. And if she has no funds to implement anything, what’s the point of the role?

I don’t think we’ve ever got an explanation for why the Leeds Park & Ride was axed at the weekend. The fact a stink wasn’t kicked up suggests it was signed off by the combined authority,

Yeah I'd agree, she seems very happy to complain, less happy to do.

 

[GatwickDepress]

While I like the idea of trolleybuses, I'm not convinced they solve one of the key issues which is traffic. Segregated tram routes would be the ideal solution - sparks effect, fewer delays, higher capacities - but it seems more likely that I'll receive my Hogwarts letter before I see a tram network in Leeds.

Even something small like making Sheepscar Junction less depressing for bus users would be a plus. I was stuck on a 3 for 20 minutes there today.

 

[Energy]

I'm not convinced they solve one of the key issues which is traffic. Segregated tram routes would be the ideal solution - sparks effect, fewer delays, higher capacities

Lots of people see bus lanes as a waste of space while not seeing dedicated tramways in the same way and view trams being far superior than a bus. Putting up trolleybus wires would also be a lot more difficult than using battery buses, even if it makes more sense.

 

[AndrewE]

While I like the idea of trolleybuses, I'm not convinced they solve one of the key issues which is traffic. Segregated tram routes would be the ideal solution - sparks effect, fewer delays, higher capacities - but it seems more likely that I'll receive my Hogwarts letter before I see a tram network in Leeds.

Even something small like making Sheepscar Junction less depressing for bus users would be a plus. I was stuck on a 3 for 20 minutes there today.

then you need bus lanes and bus priority junctions. "Traffic" is (usually single) people in cars. They have to take second (or third) place in congested or pollution reduction areas.