Leeds Trams?

[61653 HTAFC]

As we know, Leeds has long had ambitions for a tram/light-rail system, being one of the largest cities in Europe without one. The last time it was proposed was in the 2000s when preparatory works had begun before the project was scrapped, then there was the ill-advised trolleybus idea a few years ago.

I predict that in coming months and years, air-quality issues will force government to look again at tramways for our major cities that lack them, and Leeds will be a prime candidate... so where would a tram system go?

On another thread I suggested a route from the city centre could re-use the Holbeck viaduct to the south of the station as far as Elland Road before heading to White Rose Centre (where unlike heavy rail, multiple stops could serve the business parks and the shopping mall) and then head up the hill to Morley town centre.

Any other suggestions for routes, and/or criticism or direction for the suggestion above?

 

[Glenmutchkin]

What is so ill-advised or terrible about properly planned trolley bus systems?

Lower capital cost and more practical for routes like that through Headingley where the disruption involved in installing tram tracks would be unacceptable.

 

[Bantamzen]

What is so ill-advised or terrible about properly planned trolley bus systems?

Lower capital cost and more practical for routes like that through Headingley where the disruption involved in installing tram tracks would be unacceptable.

For a place like Leeds? Quite honestly the roads are simply full at peak times, and some in off peaks too. As a regular user of public transport in & around Leeds & Bradford I have watched the increasing difficulty which with operators have struggled to keep to planned timetables, and in more recent years how timetables on some routes are tweaked several times a year to try and make them possible through the slowly choking roads. Put simply, it has almost reached the point where planning for keeping buses running to time in and out of Leeds is almost impossible.

As for the main idea of the thread, if somehow funding might be offered in future, and I honestly doubt it ever would be, I wouldn't propose to replicate the current Huddersfield line even with all the problems it has with being both commuter & inner-city. There is really no need to focus any new transport solution around the WRC, mainly because the majority of it's users will not be originating from, or travelling via the centre. If for this reason that I see the proposed WRC rail stop as frivolous, the shopping centre was designed primarily for car users and positioned accordingly. As such it should not be prioritised for rail connectivity when so much of Leeds has little or none.

What I would propose would be to re-visit the idea of connecting the North West of the city, the North East and South Leeds areas as discussed in these articles:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_Supertram

https://www.citymetric.com/transpor...ansport-leeds-will-be-disaster-londoners-3559

Basically in the north west starting around the Lawnswood area, the north east around Whimoor, and in the south around Tingley. All three locations would include a park & ride scheme, they being positioned on main routes into the city. This would help strengthen the case as it could be built alongside Leeds' clean air policy by offering more capacity for car users coming into the city. In time these lines could be extended further afield, as well as being added to, perhaps up to the airport and Otley, Boston Spa and Whetherby. And in additional to the various new areas served, the tram could offer useful links between the station, bus station, university and hospitals across the city, as well as potentially offering a stop along the HS2 station. That's how I would propose to start.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What is so ill-advised or terrible about properly planned trolley bus systems?

Lower capital cost and more practical for routes like that through Headingley where the disruption involved in installing tram tracks would be unacceptable.

Nothing's ill-advised about a "properly planned" trolleybus system (other than it combining the rough ride of buses with the inflexible routing of trams, the worst of both worlds) but the proposed scheme was not properly planned. AIUI at least one of the big bus groups was involved in the planning but took their bat and ball home when they didn't get their own way.

On White Rose, I'd serve Morley due to the station being inconveniently sited for most of the town, and it makes sense to route via White Rose because there's space for a segregated alignment along Dewsbury Road without completely destroying existing buildings. The large car parks there could then double up as a park & ride via the tram.

It has been said that a station at the centre would be as much for the surrounding offices as for the mall. A tramway would do the same with the advantage that three or four separate stops along the corridor would reduce walking distances and still cost less than the single railway station.

 

[Iskra]

I don’t think trams would work well for Leeds. The roads in the centre are way too narrow and congested.

Perhaps one for the speculative ideas sub-forum but I believe a raised mono-rail/subway/light rail system would be much more suitable.

Trams are now politically toxic in Leeds too.

 

[AndyHudds]

I don’t think trams would work well for Leeds. The roads in the centre are way too narrow and congested.

Perhaps one for the speculative ideas sub-forum but I believe a raised mono-rail/subway/light rail system would be much more suitable.

Trams are now politically toxic in Leeds too.

What's the solution then because Leeds and the wider West Yorkshire area public transport is pretty grim? It's basically the odd suburban rail station and the rest is made up of buses which just get stuck in traffic .

 

[Iskra]

What's the solution then because Leeds and the wider West Yorkshire area public transport is pretty grim? It's basically the odd suburban rail station and the rest is made up of buses which just get stuck in traffic .

I agree. Any serious solution would cost an awful lot of money, so isn’t going to happen. It would also require multiple authorities to get their act together and agree on something, which is just as likely.

I’d ideally like to see a Leeds monorail or a West Yorkshire Merseyrail/Nexus system. But, money...

It's a shame much of West Yorkshire's arterial heavy rail lines got ripped up, they'd be very useful nowadays particularly The New Leeds Line and the Spen Valley Line.

 

[AndrewE]

It seems to be a fact of life in today's UK that (unless there is the sudden discovery of a bucket full of cash to upgrade all the services now buried in the roadway - as happened in Sheffield 30 years ago) we haven't got the expertise or money to put rails back in the roads. Trolleybuses would seem to be an easier answer, but even stringing wires in a city seems to be beyond us.
The killer blow for both trams and trolleybuses though is the perceived ongoing need to accommodate internal-combustion engine (and now electric) private vehicles. Until our politicians show some spine (it used to be called "leadership") we are condemned to the permanent poisonous choking of city centres, when we really need the ruthless zoning of wide areas for exclusive access only by public transport and electric delivery vehicles and taxis instead.

 

[Greetlander]

I was in China last week. Very taken with several trolleybus systems that allowed vehicles to charge on the go, and run without wires when required. Of course a traffic jam is still a traffic jam. Meanwhile here in Australia, Newcastle and Canberra have opened light-rail lines. Newcastle recharges at stops, and operates without overhead wires. Would a recharging model work in a packed city like Leeds?

 

[AndyHudds]

I was in China last week. Very taken with several trolleybus systems that allowed vehicles to charge on the go, and run without wires when required. Of course a traffic jam is still a traffic jam. Meanwhile here in Australia, Newcastle and Canberra have opened light-rail lines. Newcastle recharges at stops, and operates without overhead wires. Would a recharging model work in a packed city like Leeds?

No, as no one wants to pay for it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's interesting to note that the last two new tram systems have been built in places without a PTE involvement (Nottingham and Edinburgh), whereas the two schemes that had PTE backing (Leeds and Liverpool) foundered. At least part of the problem is the power that the bus lobby has, as demonstrated by the difficulties in bringing in the so-called "Quality Bus Contracts".

The reversal of deregulation should be a priority for any government that is serious about reducing congestion and boosting public transport use.

 

[AndyHudds]

It's interesting to note that the last two new tram systems have been built in places without a PTE involvement (Nottingham and Edinburgh), whereas the two schemes that had PTE backing (Leeds and Liverpool) foundered. At least part of the problem is the power that the bus lobby has, as demonstrated by the difficulties in bringing in the so-called "Quality Bus Contracts".

The reversal of deregulation should be a priority for any government that is serious about reducing congestion and boosting public transport use.

The thing with Quality Contracts for buses is that WYPTE lacked any bottle to impose them on the bus market. First have had it all their own way for far too long and they know they have no competition from a rapid transit system so continue to dominate and call the shots. I really do not rate WYPTE or whatever it's called lately, their heyday in the 80's hen they did good in opening a lot of local railway stations is long gone and I struggle to see what relevance and influence they have now?

 

[bewildered]

For me I'm try and reuse some of the old Leeds New line and run a tram towards Morley up via Gildersome. I'd have a terminus at Birstall and use land adjacent to the M62/M621 for a major park and ride.

As for the ill-fated northern line that was proposed for Otley Road. I'd scrap that and run a tram train up the Harrogate line that could branch off into Headingley close to Headingley Stadium and head through into Headingley and onward to a P&R at Weetwood. Alternatively a segregated line along Kirkstall Road and then up Cardigan Road.

I'd also consider running a line along York Road. A lot of track could be segregated onto the already in situ guided bus lanes to be shared between trams and buses. This could again culminate in a P&R at Thorpe Park next to the M1

 

[Ken H]

It was a pity they scrapped the Bradford trolleybuses (1972). Bradford was ideal for these, very hilly. If they didnt regen into the overhead, that surely could be organised now. Had a few goes on them as a kid.