Leeds Suburb London Services

[HSTEd]

Well I had a question about the 1tpd that current runs from Skipton and from Bradford Forster Square.
Why are they two seperate trains? Surely it would be a more efficient use of stock to have one train that starts at Skipton and calls at Bradford, as there appears to be a triangle there to allow that movement, or to even have 2tpd calling at both. Especially now Cl91 sets are apparently cleared into both stations following tests at Skipton.

Is there any particular reason or is it just due to the wording of the franchise agreement?

 

[Max]

Well I had a question about the 1tpd that current runs from Skipton and from Bradford Forster Square.
Why are they two seperate trains? Surely it would be a more efficient use of stock to have one train that starts at Skipton and calls at Bradford, as there appears to be a triangle there to allow that movement, or to even have 2tpd calling at both. Especially now Cl91 sets are apparently cleared into both stations following tests at Skipton.

Is there any particular reason or is it just due to the wording of the franchise agreement?

I would hardly call Skipton a suburb of Leeds! It's an interesting idea though. One potential issue I can think of is that the train would in reverse formation from Bradford, something which I could imagine EC trying to avoid.

 

[4SRKT]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of restriction on mk IVs passing through platform 5 at Shipley. It's very tight indeed. To avoid the train running in reverse formation it would have to run around the triangle at Shipley when working ECS from Neville Hill to Skipton as well. Or use an HST and run it via Hambleton. Or book the set that worked North to Skipton on day 1 to work south on day 2.

Frankly I wouldn't bother with the Skipton and just run both from Bradford. The service on the Aire Valley is so good and so frequent that an extra train is simply not needed. How many other small market towns not on a main line have a direct service to thatLondon that starts there?

@ Max, while you correctly point out that Skipton isn't a suburb of Leeds, you fail to do this for Bradford, a city of about 350,000 people! If you're ever over this way I'd be at pains to point out that Bratfut is also not a suburb of Leeds IIWY

 

[HSTEd]

Would it be very bad for the train to run in reverse formation between Skipton and Bradford? When it came back south again on the return run it would reverse a second time and end up in the same direction as it would be if it hadnt reversed at all.

You could run it ECS to Bradford and reverse prior to taking it anywhere else after it terminates in Skipton, or just make the northbound train the last of the night and the southbound train the first of the day.

I suggest this for 2tpd Skipton-London via Bradford FC

- Set runs up from Skipton one morning
- Set runs down to skipton later that morning
- Set, after a short layover, runs up to London a second time in the early afternoon
- Set runs down to skipton late that night and either stables there over night or is run ECS via Bradford, perhaps even stabling in Bradford if it has a spare platform.

EDIT: Interesting about Mark IVs being restricted around that curve, would there be anywhere I can get that sort of information?

 

[tbtc]

Frankly I wouldn't bother with the Skipton and just run both from Bradford. The service on the Aire Valley is so good and so frequent that an extra train is simply not needed. How many other small market towns not on a main line have a direct service to thatLondon that starts there?

Bradford gets six trains to Leeds most hours (compared to half hourly from Skipton), so you could easily make the same argument about Bradford having such a frequent service that no London service is needed (in the way that Rotherham - London passengers change at Sheffield).

I think that reversing at Bradford would take up so much time that you'd invariably be overtaken by a 333 meaning that the East Coast service was actually slower - nice to have a direct train to the Capital, but not if its going to take almost half an hour longer...

 

[Aictos]

Why not extend one of the Leeds services to Skipton on a hourly basis ie extend either the xx:05 or the xx:35 Kings Cross to Leeds services though to Skipton?

Surely that would be the simplest thing to do?

 

[4SRKT]

Bradford gets six trains to Leeds most hours (compared to half hourly from Skipton), so you could easily make the same argument about Bradford having such a frequent service that no London service is needed (in the way that Rotherham - London passengers change at Sheffield).

I would agree with that TBH, although Bradford is a much bigger place than Rotherham. However, if there are to be services from the Aire Valley to London I think it makes sense for them to be all from Bradford. Bradford may have 3 times as many trains to Leeds as does Skipton (but nowhere near 3 times the number of seats), but its population is many times more than 3 times that of Skipton. Skipton does also have pretty close to 3 trains an hour to Leeds when the Morecambes and Carlisles are counted in. Bradford's through service to London can be served better by an improved GC operation cutting out Ponte and running direct from Kirkgate to Donny via Hare Park.

 

[Aictos]

Bradford gets six trains to Leeds most hours (compared to half hourly from Skipton)

You sure about that?

Bradford Forster Square only get a half hourly service to Leeds after 07:40 while Skipton enjoys a minimum of 4 trains a hour after then.

4,000 posts, woo hoo

 

[4SRKT]

Why not extend one of the Leeds services to Skipton on a hourly basis ie extend either the xx:05 or the xx:35 Kings Cross to Leeds services though to Skipton?

Surely that would be the simplest thing to do?

Massive overprovision of capacity to what is a small market town. EC would need to have two extra sets to cover this. Paths through Shipley are at a premium and unless it were to run in the path of one of the locals and stop everywhere it would probably be impractical. All intermediate stations except Keighley are too short for a mk IV set, so passengers could only board/disembark from a single door.


Even if a path could be found there there is the problem of the level crossing at Cross Hills where the busy A6068 Keighley > Colne road crosses the line. In an average hour 8 locals, 2 longer distance passenger workings, and at least one [lengthy] freight cross this, resulting in the gates being closed to road traffic for between 20 and 30 minutes per hour. Two additional 10-vehicle trains crossing this every hour would surely result in the gates being closed for more than 50% of the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You sure about that?

Bradford Forster Square only get a half hourly service to Leeds after 07:40 while Skipton enjoys a minimum of 4 trains a hour after then.

4,000 posts, woo hoo

Interchange has 4 trains per hour. 2 of Skipton's 4 trains go to Bradford, and changing at Shipley only gets you into Leeds 5 minutes earlier than just waiting for the through would have done.

 

[Oswyntail]

Though Skipton is much smaller than Bradford, it is also the railhead for a vast hinterland which is poorly served by public transport.
Does anyone have details of the relative loadings on the direct London trains? I suspect that either would be dwarfed by the potential loading of a direct Ilkley-London service

 

[4SRKT]

The trains are reasonably well loaded from Shipley. The Bradford working gets a lot of its custom from here. Both trains shed a large number of passengers at Leeds, both being used as comfy commuter trains. The Skipton particularly so as it gets into Leeds later and has commuters from Skipton and Keighley as well.

Many people commuting from rural North Yorkshire seem to drive to Steeton & Silsden rather than Skipton to save ching on the fare. This doesn't apply as much to InterCity journeys of course.

 

[TheWalrus]

Or hand the EC bradford to GC and just serving skipton?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Or hand the EC bradford to GC and just serving skipton?

That would deprive it of a fast morning service to London though. IIRC the current BDQ-KGX train serves Shipley, Leeds and Wakefield Westgate only.

 

[4SRKT]

That would deprive it of a fast morning service to London though. IIRC the current BDQ-KGX train serves Shipley, Leeds and Wakefield Westgate only.

It's a fantastic train. I can board it at Shipley at 06:35 and be at the Cross before 9.

 

[Eagle]

How many other small market towns not on a main line have a direct service to London that starts there?

Off the top of my head, Frome does :P

 

[tbtc]

You sure about that?

Bradford Forster Square only get a half hourly service to Leeds after 07:40 while Skipton enjoys a minimum of 4 trains a hour after then

Interchange has 4 trains per hour. 2 of Skipton's 4 trains go to Bradford, and changing at Shipley only gets you into Leeds 5 minutes earlier than just waiting for the through would have done.

Yup. Bradford to Leeds is generally six trains an hour (two via Shipley, four via Pudsey).

I would agree with that TBH, although Bradford is a much bigger place than Rotherham. However, if there are to be services from the Aire Valley to London I think it makes sense for them to be all from Bradford. Bradford may have 3 times as many trains to Leeds as does Skipton (but nowhere near 3 times the number of seats), but its population is many times more than 3 times that of Skipton. Skipton does also have pretty close to 3 trains an hour to Leeds when the Morecambes and Carlisles are counted in. Bradford's through service to London can be served better by an improved GC operation cutting out Ponte and running direct from Kirkgate to Donny via Hare Park.

I appreciate that the populations aren't identical, but there is certainly a parallel with:

• Sheffield, change here for Rotherham
• Leeds, change here for Bradford (before GC)
• Newcastle, change here for Sunderland (before GC)

In that sense, Bradford doesn't do too badly. The problem is that everywhere wants a direct London service (e.g. Ilkley has been suggested on this thread).

 

[4SRKT]

Off the top of my head, Frome does :P

Well, that's one other........
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yup. Bradford to Leeds is generally six trains an hour (two via Shipley, four via Pudsey).



I appreciate that the populations aren't identical, but there is certainly a parallel with:

• Sheffield, change here for Rotherham
• Leeds, change here for Bradford (before GC)
• Newcastle, change here for Sunderland (before GC)

In that sense, Bradford doesn't do too badly. The problem is that everywhere wants a direct London service (e.g. Ilkley has been suggested on this thread).

I don't think Bradford does too badly considering that it is off the main line. The direct EC service is nice, but not really essential, especially northbound where people are less likely to pick a specific service. 18:33 is quite a late departure for a single daily through train anyway IYAM.