Leeds - Manchester monthly ticket

[morgantyreman]

hey guys sorry I haven't been round much been busy with looking for work.

Anyway am bored of Leeds so me and my house mate are starting a new life in Manchester. The catch is am going to need to stay in Bramley for a month before we get our apartment simply because of bond and house mate still hasn't got a job yet.

I went to Northern today any they told me that a monthly ticket Leeds - Manchester Stations will cost £232.80 with no restrictions

Now without getting a advanced ticket everyday is there a cheaper way of going it I.E i have a west Yorkshire metro card which is £62.50 so would it be cheaper to keep a West York's card and do Marsden/Hebden bridge - Manchester Stations ?

Also if I got a Bramley - Manchester stations is Bramley - Leeds - Manchester Pic a valid route

I have my car back on the road but it will cost £465 a month to run + fuel so train seems cheaper and id rather not pay for the car if i only use it to get to work.

Many thanks and look forward to answers
Morgan

 

[First class]

I'm sure TPE do some sort of Early-bird season tickets with AM peak restrictions - await for someone with FRPP access to confirm availability.

 

[John @ home]

I went to Northern today any they told me that a monthly ticket Leeds - Manchester Stations will cost £232.80 with no restrictions

Now without getting a advanced ticket everyday is there a cheaper way of going

I'm sure TPE do some sort of Early-bird season tickets with AM peak restrictions - await for someone with FRPP access to confirm availability.

Yes. The NFM 04 CD gives:

Origin: LEEDS
Destination: MANCHESTER STNS
Route: ANY PERMITTED
Ticket type: Season 1 Month 0 Days
Adult Price: PSS £232.80 TPE (Standard)
PSF £349.10 TPE (First Class)

Origin: LEEDS
Destination: MANCHESTER STNS
Route: EARLYBIRD NOTHS1
Ticket type: Season 1 Month 0 Days
Adult Price: PSS £144.00 TPE (Standard)
No First Class fare.

Divide by 3.84 for weekly ticket prices. The time restrictions on the Earlybird season are:

First TransPennine Express Earlybird
Valid for travel on any train travelling between permitted destinations. Available as a weekly or monthly ticket. You must arrive at your outward destination before 07:30. Your return journey must depart between 10:00 and 16:00, or after 18:30. Early Bird ticket holders who need to travel during peak times can purchase Early Bird Plus for GBP6, allowing peak period travel on the day of purchase. This must be purchased before you board the train
https://www.firsttranspennine.trainsfares.co.uk/season/popups/st_ticket_restrictions.asp?ticket_type=7DS&fare_restriction_code=

I was amused by the route restriction shown for the Earlybird fare. It had not occurred to me that a Leeds - Manchester season ticket might be valid between St Pancras and Ebbsfleet on HS1!

if I got a Bramley - Manchester stations is Bramley - Leeds - Manchester Pic a valid route

Yes. The "Any Permitted" seasons Bramley - Manchester and Leeds - Manchester are the same price and each is valid via the other station. There is no Bramley - Manchester Earlybird fare, but if you bought a Leeds - Manchester Earlybird season it would be valid between Leeds and Bramley subject to the time restriction. TPE set the fare, but there is no route restriction (other than Not HS1), just a time restriction.

John

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yes. The NFM 04 CD givesivide by 3.84 for weekly ticket prices. The time restrictions on the Earlybird season are:I was amused by the route restriction shown for the Earlybird fare. It had not occurred to me that a Leeds - Manchester season ticket might be valid between St Pancras and Ebbsfleet on HS1!

Yes. The "Any Permitted" seasons Bramley - Manchester and Leeds - Manchester are the same price and each is valid via the other station. There is no Bramley - Manchester Earlybird fare, but if you bought a Leeds - Manchester Earlybird season it would be valid between Leeds and Bramley subject to the time restriction. TPE set the fare, but there is no route restriction (other than Not HS1), just a time restriction.

John

The Leeds - Manchester EarlyBird Fare would NOT be valid to travel between Bramley and Leeds at any time.

The Earlybird ticket is valid for travel on Transpennine Express Trains only, so is NOT valid on Northern trains to / from Bramley.

 

[yorkie]

If you are going from Bramley, is it not worth combining GMPTE and WYPTE cards? IIRC from the other topic, and without a map to hand, if you take the Rochdale route you can combine these tickets as they cover the whole journey (unlike the 'uddersfield route where you are not covered between Greenfield and Marsden).

 

[glynn80]

If you are going from Bramley, is it not worth combining GMPTE and WYPTE cards? IIRC from the other topic, and without a map to hand, if you take the Rochdale route you can combine these tickets as they cover the whole journey (unlike the 'uddersfield route where you are not covered between Greenfield and Marsden).

As far as I can tell the GMPTE boundary (https://themanual.tso.co.uk/tm_pte_information/NFM91_Sept_NWE_O_p3_large.gif) finishes at Littleborough and the WYPTE boundary (http://mobile.nationalrail.co.uk/ma...917a9e649fb95db8b12ad320b5f/areaMap/wypte.jpg) finishes one stop further at Walsden. Therefore you would still need to purchase an non-PTE funded season between the two boundaries. Saying that however, it is certainly the cheaper of the two routes for combining GMPTE and WYPTE cards. Greenfield to Marsden is £22.20 per week whereas Littleborough to Walsden is £10.00 cheaper at £12.20 per week.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

As far as I can tell the GMPTE boundary (https://themanual.tso.co.uk/tm_pte_information/NFM91_Sept_NWE_O_p3_large.gif) finishes at Littleborough and the WYPTE boundary (http://mobile.nationalrail.co.uk/ma...917a9e649fb95db8b12ad320b5f/areaMap/wypte.jpg) finishes one stop further at Walsden. Therefore you would still need to purchase an non-PTE funded season between the two boundaries. Saying that however, it is certainly the cheaper of the two routes for combining GMPTE and WYPTE cards. Greenfield to Marsden is £22.20 per week whereas Littleborough to Walsden is £10.00 cheaper at £12.20 per week.

If going via the Calder Valley route then there is still a gap between the boundary points - glynn80 is correct in saying you would still need a Littleborough - Walsden Season.

Remember also of course that as per combination of ticket rules, if both your tickets are PTE tickets - which both the GMPTE Traincard and the West Yorkshire Metrocards are - then you MUST be on a train which stops at the station where you transfer from one ticket to the other. Even if there was no gap, you would be restricted to trains which stopped at the boundary station. As long as one of your tickets is a NOT a pte ticket, then you don't need to stop. So actually the gap between boundaries does you a bit of a favour by forcing you to buy a non-pte ticket, therefore allowing you to use faster trains down the Calder Valley. You must still of course be on the same line of route, so you couldn't buy a Littleborough - Walsden ticket, a metrocard and traincard and then travel on TPE services via Huddersfield.

 

[yorkie]

isn't 2 PTE tickets + 1 season valid non-stop? in the same way that 2 day returns plus 1 season is valid non-stop

 

[John @ home]

The Leeds - Manchester EarlyBird Fare would NOT be valid to travel between Bramley and Leeds at any time.

The Earlybird ticket is valid for travel on Transpennine Express Trains only

That's interesting. I based my comments on the NFM 04 CD and the TPE web site.

NFM 04 gives no indication that this fare is limited to a particular train company (other than "Not HS1").

Origin: LEEDS
Destination: MANCHESTER STNS
Route: EARLYBIRD NOTHS1
Ticket type: Season 1 Month 0 Days
Adult Price: PSS £144.00 TPE

Neither does the TPE web site, which specifically states that the ticket is valid for any train travelling between permitted destinations.

First TransPennine Express Earlybird
Valid for travel on any train travelling between permitted destinations. Available as a weekly or monthly ticket. You must arrive at your outward destination before 07:30. Your return journey must depart between 10:00 and 16:00, or after 18:30. Early Bird ticket holders who need to travel during peak times can purchase Early Bird Plus for GBP6, allowing peak period travel on the day of purchase. This must be purchased before you board the train

The permitted destinations are those printed on the ticket, that is LEEDS and MANCHESTER STATIONS.

kwvr45, can you please point me to any document in the public domain which states that this ticket is limited to a particular train company? What are the words printed on the ticket under "Route"?

John

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Erm, no I can't point to any document which says that because I can't find any which does!

I was at work on my mobile at the time, and only had my staff briefing document to refer to in my fares / retail folder. The wording on that is identical to that in the NFM Website (which is of course password protected) - with the exception that the document I have which was issued March 2009 says "Valid on Transpennine Express trains ONLY" - which the NFM does not.

Now thinking that there might be something amiss I phoned our Fares Setting dept and they confirmed that they were valid on TPE trains only.

And I can't remember what is printed on the ticket under the "Route" heading, as I havn't seen once for a bit, but I seem to think it just says "EarlyBird".

I wasn't aware what the website said until now, but I shall drop an email detailing the inconsistencies and see what happens!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just for interest, the NFM says this: I'm not sure what the 'public' version of this states as I haven't seen it. Our staff briefing document is identical, with the exception of the bit I have added in RED.

Early Bird Season Tickets - First TransPennine Express

Available as either a Weekly or Monthly Ticket.

Available in Standard Class, on First Transpennine Express services Only.

Outward travel must be on a service that is due to arrive at its destination before 07:30.

Return journey must depart between 10:00 and 16:00, or after 18:30.

The Early Bird Plus is available at £6.00 for those customers who need to travel during the peak for the day of purchase. This must be purchased before the customer boards the train.

The weekly fares on the available flows are detailed below:


Tickets should be sold using the normal weekly and monthly season ticket types along with Route Code 00295 (Early Bird).

The Early Bird is retailed at stations only and cannot be purchased or renewed on train.

An additional Early Bird Plus can be purchased for £6. This allows the customer to use the Early Bird Product in the restricted time periods on the date of purchase only. This supplement is NOT available for purchase on board train. Customers boarding without the supplement on a peak train should be regarded as not having a valid ticket and sold the full single or return ticket as applicable.

 

[glynn80]

isn't 2 PTE tickets + 1 season valid non-stop? in the same way that 2 day returns plus 1 season is valid non-stop

That is was kwvr45 has actually said in his post:

Remember also of course that as per combination of ticket rules, if both your tickets are PTE tickets - which both the GMPTE Traincard and the West Yorkshire Metrocards are - then you MUST be on a train which stops at the station where you transfer from one ticket to the other. Even if there was no gap, you would be restricted to trains which stopped at the boundary station. As long as one of your tickets is a NOT a pte ticket, then you don't need to stop. So actually the gap between boundaries does you a bit of a favour by forcing you to buy a non-pte ticket, therefore allowing you to use faster trains down the Calder Valley.

Emphasis added personally

Just for interest, the NFM says this: I'm not sure what the 'public' version of this states as I haven't seen it. Our staff briefing document is identical, with the exception of the bit I have added in RED.

Early Bird Season Tickets - First TransPennine Express

Available as either a Weekly or Monthly Ticket.

Available in Standard Class, on First Transpennine Express services Only.

This situation has got to be the worst example of a hidden condition that there is. It is not in the public NFM or on the National Rail website or on the TPE Website or even in the Staff Fares Manual (FRPP). The only location the condition is written down is in a retail briefing document given only to TPE staff!

 

[John @ home]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply, kwvr45.

Just for interest, the NFM says this: [snip]
Tickets should be sold using the normal weekly and monthly season ticket types along with Route Code 00295 (Early Bird).

And I can't remember what is printed on the ticket under the "Route" heading, as I havn't seen once for a bit, but I seem to think it just says "EarlyBird".

The NFM 04 CD confirms that the Route Code is indeed 00295:

Origin: LEEDS
Destination: MANCHESTER STNS
Route: EARLYBIRD NOTHS1
Ticket type: Season 1 Month 0 Days
Adult Price: PSS £144.00 TPE
PSS - SEASON STD
00295 - EARLYBIRD NOTHS1
Standard Class Season
To : 0438 MANCHESTER STNS
No Restriction Applies

I therefore expect that the text printed under "Route" on the ticket is EARLYBIRD NOTHS1.

Two issues here. First, the text No Restriction Applies is nonsense when referring to this ticket, but that particular piece of nonsense is listed in NFM 04 for many restricted fares, not just this one.

Second, the National Conditions of Carriage define when tickets may be restricted to the trains operated by a particular train company:

B. VALIDITY OF TICKETS
10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

If it's not shown on the ticket, then no such restriction applies, and Northern can be compelled to accept the ticket between Leeds and Bramley.

John

 

[yorkie]

It's an internal railway issue, and until it is resolved passengers can clearly use any train as advertised. Even if they resolved it at the next fares update, if someone entered a years' contract by buying an annual now at that price, it would have to be honoured for the duration of the ticket.

 

[John @ home]

It's an internal railway issue, and until it is resolved passengers can clearly use any train as advertised. Even if they resolved it at the next fares update, if someone entered a years' contract by buying an annual now at that price, it would have to be honoured for the duration of the ticket.

I agree with the principle that a contract must be honoured. But this particular season ticket is only available in weekly and monthly versions:

First TransPennine Express Earlybird
Valid for travel on any train travelling between permitted destinations. Available as a weekly or monthly ticket.

At present morgantyreman can still obtain it for a month with Bramley - Manchester validity. His post suggests that may be all he needs.

John

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It's an internal railway issue, and until it is resolved passengers can clearly use any train as advertised. Even if they resolved it at the next fares update, if someone entered a years' contract by buying an annual now at that price, it would have to be honoured for the duration of the ticket.

Chaps! Some good news!

I have just this minute come off the phone from our commercial department, where I was talking to the top man.

He has advised me that the Earlybird ticket is NOT restricted to Transpennine Express, and that the information contained in the Fares Manual is correct. I said what our staff brief has said and he advised that it seems there has been some confusion and the staff brief is in fact incorrect.

Therefore the OP will be perfectly able to use the Earlybird season ticket from Bramley into Leeds, subject to the published time restrictions.

 

[John @ home]

Some good news!

our commercial department ... has advised me that the Earlybird ticket is NOT restricted to Transpennine Express, and that the information contained in the Fares Manual is correct

Good!

Thanks for reporting this so promptly, kwvr45.

John

 

[yorkie]

That is good news! The ticket wouldn't have made any sense if it was TPE only.