Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield, Wakefield

[Eric]

Why do Northern continue to put three car 158 sets on this sparsely used service?

At times a 153 could get away with the amount of passengers using this service.

This again like the GC service takes an excessive time linking Bradford to Wakefield (some 78 minutes) which isn't helped by the turn backs at Huddersfield and Wakefield Kirkgate.

I do understand that at peak hours it's advisable to have strengthened units on this service to cope with the Bradford - Leeds/Leeds - Bradford commuters, but surely having 3 car 158's roaming around West Yorkshire practically empty during the afternoon isn't good stock allocation IMO.

 

[Anvil1984]

Its because of the daft way the route is interworked with Calder Valley Manchester - Selby services, it works across in the am peak from Man Pic and one later in PM i believe. The loadings east of Leeds dont deserve a 158 either, east of Micklefield barely warrants a service and could easily be gobbled up by the TPE Hulls calling at Garforth and South Milford (They provide the Sunday and Evening service to Milford anyway) with the current Selbys with providing an extra York service or turning at Gascoigne Wood as the Selby terminator currents sits there for 50 odd minutes so it would save a set


Basically the current diagram is man vic (semi fast) - selby - grand tour to wakefleld westgate - grand tour to Leeds - Man Vic (stopper) - Leeds stopper - man vic (semi fast), complicated eh

 

[Eric]

Its because of the daft way the route is interworked with Calder Valley Manchester - Selby services, it works across in the am peak from Man Pic and one later in PM i believe. The loadings east of Leeds dont deserve a 158 either, east of Micklefield barely warrants a service and could easily be gobbled up by the TPE Hulls calling at Garforth and South Milford (They provide the Sunday and Evening service to Milford anyway) with the current Selbys with providing an extra York service or turning at Gascoigne Wood as the Selby terminator currents sits there for 50 odd minutes so it would save a set


Basically the current diagram is man vic (semi fast) - selby - grand tour to wakefleld westgate - grand tour to Leeds - Man Vic (stopper) - Leeds stopper - man vic (semi fast), complicated eh

Cheers for the information about the current diagram mate.

I guess at the end of the day it's all about having the the 3 car 158's on the peak services at the right time from a Northern point of view.


P.S Love the name "Wakefield Grand Tour" ha ha ha

 

[Anvil1984]

The Calder Valley and Grand Tour are probably Northerns biggest areas of wastage at present

Calder Valley Blackpool - Yorks sit at York for about 50 - 55 minutes before going back out
Calder Valley Man Vics - Selby sit at Selby for 45 - 50 minutes before starting the "Grand Tour"
Grand Tour from Wakefield - Leeds sit at Huddersfield mid journey for 20 minutes and also take 158s away from Calder Valley services for 5 hours whilst its on the circuitous route

 

[Eric]

The Calder Valley and Grand Tour are probably Northerns biggest areas of wastage at present

Calder Valley Blackpool - Yorks sit at York for about 50 - 55 minutes before going back out
Calder Valley Man Vics - Selby sit at Selby for 45 - 50 minutes before starting the "Grand Tour"
Grand Tour from Wakefield - Leeds sit at Huddersfield mid journey for 20 minutes and also take 158s away from Calder Valley services for 5 hours whilst its on the circuitous route

Isn't there any way Northern could tweak the timetable so we don't have three car sets sat out of service for hours on a daily basis?

Equally I'll ask the question that is there enough demand to continue the Wakefield Grand Tour?

 

[tbtc]

Isn't there any way Northern could tweak the timetable so we don't have three car sets sat out of service for hours on a daily basis?

Equally I'll ask the question that is there enough demand to continue the Wakefield Grand Tour?

1. Fair point, I guess its a combination of (a) the "Grand Tour" replacing existing local services, so fitting into their paths and (b) Northern not getting the best slots and playing second fiddle to other TOCs

2. The "Grand Tour" existed in small parts for many years. Selby - Leeds was one service, Leeds - Bradford was another, Huddersfield - Wakefield another. I think all are justified as services. The "Grand Tour" combined these four services with the new Bradford - Brighouse - Huddersfield service (again, probably justified).

You could argue that the individual routes should be reinstated (maybe Selby - Leeds, Leeds - Hebden Bridge, Bradford - Huddersfield and Huddersfield - Wakefield - Pontefract?), but presumably running one "combined" service is better from a stock/diagram/staff point of view? Or giving some token direct links that are of little real use (Halifax - Wakefield) but appease politicians?

 

[Anvil1984]

Huddersfield - Wakefield was originally tagged on to Man Vic - Huddersfield services in FNW days, something does need to be done with the route and stock allocation.

I dont know about the Grand Tour loading as I only work them between Selby and Leeds but I stick by my comment regarding Micklefield to Selby. This part rarely has double figures travelling beyone Micklefield and could easily be accomodated by the TPE with extra stops at South Milford and Garforth.

If the current Selby ran to York and vice versa then that would help particularly on race days and it would also help cut the turn around at York down to about 30 mins instead of the hour like at present, run the service to and from Man Vic, curtail the Grand Tour from Leeds. Im sure theres some way round it but its tricky

 

[Eric]

Huddersfield - Wakefield was originally tagged on to Man Vic - Huddersfield services in FNW days, something does need to be done with the route and stock allocation.

I dont know about the Grand Tour loading as I only work them between Selby and Leeds but I stick by my comment regarding Micklefield to Selby. This part rarely has double figures travelling beyone Micklefield and could easily be accomodated by the TPE with extra stops at South Milford and Garforth.

If the current Selby ran to York and vice versa then that would help particularly on race days and it would also help cut the turn around at York down to about 30 mins instead of the hour like at present, run the service to and from Man Vic, curtail the Grand Tour from Leeds. Im sure theres some way round it but its tricky

What about an hourly Selby - Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield or York - Selby - Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield?

With a shuttle then serving Huddersfield and Wakefield?

Just an idea which can't be any worse then the current set up we have?

 

[tbtc]

Huddersfield - Wakefield was originally tagged on to Man Vic - Huddersfield services in FNW days, something does need to be done with the route and stock allocation

Ah, yeah, I forgot about the old FNW service into West Yorkshire.

I could see the logic in splitting it at Huddersfield (for operational reasons etc - did anyone use it all the way from Wakefield to Manchester?), but then tagging the Wakefield end onto the Leeds - Bradford - Brighouse - Huddersfield makes no sense at all... they'd have been better keeping it stand-alone (or to Manchester Victoria) IMHO

If the current Selby ran to York and vice versa then that would help particularly on race days and it would also help cut the turn around at York down to about 30 mins instead of the hour like at present, run the service to and from Man Vic, curtail the Grand Tour from Leeds. Im sure theres some way round it but its tricky

Agreed about the need to improve Hull - York - that's a really poor timetable for two decent sized places - could do with an hourly service (same times each hour)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What about an hourly Selby - Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield or York - Selby - Leeds - Bradford - Huddersfield?

With a shuttle then serving Huddersfield and Wakefield?

Just an idea which can't be any worse then the current set up we have?

One problem the service has is the reversal at Kirkgate, then getting up to Westgate (where it needs to cross the Southbound mainline onto the Northbound platform) - given the pressure at Westgate that's not always easy.

How about a Huddersfield - Wakefield Kirkgate - Featherstone - Pontefract - Knottingly service? Should take around 52 mins, so two units would do an hourly service. Potential for extending some journeys beyond Pontefract to Adwick/ Doncaster instead, for ECML connections?

Annoyingly, Huddersfield - Bradford is just too long for one train to do hourly (39 minutes each way), so that'd have to remain part of another service (e.g. onto Leeds)

 

[Eric]

Ah, yeah, I forgot about the old FNW service into West Yorkshire.

I could see the logic in splitting it at Huddersfield (for operational reasons etc - did anyone use it all the way from Wakefield to Manchester?), but then tagging the Wakefield end onto the Leeds - Bradford - Brighouse - Huddersfield makes no sense at all... they'd have been better keeping it stand-alone (or to Manchester Victoria) IMHO



Agreed about the need to improve Hull - York - that's a really poor timetable for two decent sized places - could do with an hourly service (same times each hour)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


One problem the service has is the reversal at Kirkgate, then getting up to Westgate (where it needs to cross the Southbound mainline onto the Northbound platform) - given the pressure at Westgate that's not always easy.

How about a Huddersfield - Wakefield Kirkgate - Featherstone - Pontefract - Knottingly service? Should take around 52 mins, so two units would do an hourly service. Potential for extending some journeys beyond Pontefract to Adwick/ Doncaster instead, for ECML connections?

Annoyingly, Huddersfield - Bradford is just too long for one train to do hourly (39 minutes each way), so that'd have to remain part of another service (e.g. onto Leeds)

I agree about Bradford to Huddersfield taking far too long (39/40 minutes) when agin the bus services X6, 363 can do the journey in 25/35 minutes respectively.

The problem for the journey time of 40 minutes by rail from BDI to HUD are the speed restrictions between Halifax and Brighouse and then the usual five minute wait, awaiting line clearance from the signal to proceed onto the Leeds to Manchester line and down to Huddersfield.

I can't see how this could be improved in all honesty because the TPE services will always get the right of way before the Wakefield Grand Tour.

 

[brompton rail]

The Huddersfield to Wakefield Westgate section is intended to connect into xx.05 Leeds to London services so going further east from Kirkgate would empty the trains.

From May (Eureka t/t) there is a 9 minute connection from London to Huddersfiels (xx.30/xx.39), but returning south the connection is 20 minutes because the KX train departs Westgate 10 mins later than now.

 

[tbtc]

The Huddersfield to Wakefield Westgate section is intended to connect into xx.05 Leeds to London services so going further east from Kirkgate would empty the trains.

At the moment you have a timetable roughly like this:

Huddersfield 10.27
Leeds 10.52
(London train leaves at 11.05)

Huddersfield 10.35
Wakefield W 11.08
(London train leaves at 11.17)

So there is already a good connection at Leeds (ten minutes is the "minimum") into the XX.05 London train. Is it really worth disrupting the main line at Wakefield Westgate twice an hour for the Huddersfield Pacer? Paths are at a premium already through Westgate.

 

[ashworth]

Why do Northern continue to put three car 158 sets on this sparsely used service?

At times a 153 could get away with the amount of passengers using this service.

I do understand that at peak hours it's advisable to have strengthened units on this service to cope with the Bradford - Leeds/Leeds - Bradford commuters, but surely having 3 car 158's roaming around West Yorkshire practically empty during the afternoon isn't good stock allocation IMO.

This is particulary annoying because of the fact that these centre cars were removed from EMT services on the busy Liverpool-Norwich service to be given to Northern. However, that point has been covered numerous times.
I do understand the point that they are need by Northern at peak times but EMT needed them at all times of the day.

Perhaps these suggestions are too way out:

Wakefield-Huddersfield-Manchester service - restored as it used to be (if the link to Wakefield Westgate is not required these could be extended to Featherstone, Pontefract and Knottingley.

Sheffield-Barnsley-Penistone-Huddersfield-Halifax-Bradford.
Although this service would link major Yorkshire cities it would be faster to travel via Leeds from Barnsley and Sheffield but it would provide cross Huddersfield travel opportunities for Penistone, Denby Dale etc.

Another Northen service which travels a very long round tour to link places just a few miles apart is Scunthorpe-Doncaster-Sheffield-Retford-Lincoln.

What about Lincoln-Retford-Sheffield-New Mills Central-Manchester
Perhaps not the fastest service if calling at all the local Hope Valley stations but could be a very useful through link from a city like Lincoln which has a very poor long distance train service.
If this can only be operated 2 hourly because of capacity in the Hope Valley, what about a 2 hourly Sheffield-Retford-Lincoln-Sleaford-Boston-Skegness.
This would link South Yorkshire with the seaside destination of Skegness (there used to be a few through services in the past) and would also give Boston and Skegness a direct train to Lincoln (their county town), whilst still maintaining an hourly Sheffield-Lincoln service.

 

[142094]

One problem the service has is the reversal at Kirkgate, then getting up to Westgate (where it needs to cross the Southbound mainline onto the Northbound platform) - given the pressure at Westgate that's not always easy.

Don't do that all the time, there is one or two workings where there is a gap between southbound trains and the Huddersfield train will sit in the southbound platform. All other times they go into one of the sidings at the north end of the station.

It is quite peculiar that there are a few workings around the area that have an allocation for more than what is required. During the day the Knottingley trains are just about empty, there is a 2x 150s going round the Harrogate line and the 158s on top of that. The problem is catering for the peaks - I bet it would be hard to change the diagrams to allow certain units to go elsewhere during the day and get them back for capacity when they are needed in the evening peak.

 

[tbtc]

Don't do that all the time, there is one or two workings where there is a gap between southbound trains and the Huddersfield train will sit in the southbound platform. All other times they go into one of the sidings at the north end of the station.

It is quite peculiar that there are a few workings around the area that have an allocation for more than what is required. During the day the Knottingley trains are just about empty, there is a 2x 150s going round the Harrogate line and the 158s on top of that. The problem is catering for the peaks - I bet it would be hard to change the diagrams to allow certain units to go elsewhere during the day and get them back for capacity when they are needed in the evening peak.

It generally arrives at Westgate at xx.08 and leave at xx.29, so generally ends up crossing both lines (twice), which must be a nuisance (given how quickly the XC/East Coast services catch the Northern stoppers on the line)

I agree about the offpeak service provision being quite generous on some lines. Sadly the fixed formations and complicated interworkings means there's no easy way round it, but it'd be interesting to see a plan for how any "doubled" units could leave carriages at Leeds/ Neville Hill at the end of the morning peak (would probably be a nightmare to organise though!)

 

[laird]

I guess this is the drawback where services are moved to a clockface timetable, better for predictability no doubt but at the cost of units sitting idle for periods during the day.

Presumably all the direct services are good from an ORCATS viewpoint although I guess Northern would already have been getting a good share of the money (just Transpennine to share with on most of the route discussed)?

 

[Anvil1984]

The Harrogate line is a strange one, it kind of suffers the same issues as the Selby line especially in the peak, VERY busy Horsforth to Leeds and then steady to Harrogate and then goes with the peak (busy from Harrogate to York in morning and vice versa in afternoon)

The 0652 service from York can get screwed by East Coast as the Harrogate - Kings Cross is not the most reliable and it can often be found turning back passengers at Horsforth and beyond and thats a 4 car 150 set (you can't physically use anything longer due to platform lengths). But for the middle of the day 2 cars will oft suffice and would make the job of catching the Horsforth to Burley Park / Headingley Fare dod, I mean passengers a lot easier

As for the 3 car 158s being used incorrectly I agree with that, there are services they are intended for which they are needed for, 1641 from Leeds (ex Blackpool) to York is horrendous and thats a 2 car but very managable with 3 car, its one of my least favourites to work, but great for playing passenger tetris.

 

[brompton rail]

"What about Lincoln-Retford-Sheffield-New Mills Central-Manchester
Perhaps not the fastest service if calling at all the local Hope Valley stations but could be a very useful through link from a city like Lincoln which has a very poor long distance train service."

The middle part of this service is operated to SYPTE specification. The PTE require that the service from Kiveton goes to Meadowhall which is why it was once linked with Sheffield - Huddersfield ( and proved very unreliable) and now it is linked to the Sheffield - Doncaster stoppers.

 

[Anvil1984]

Also just going back on the York - Hull is because it takes just unde / over an hour (under if via Hambleton Curve, over if via Sherburn) and needs speeding up desperately but I believe as from May more of the services are going via Sherburn blighting that.

 

[tbtc]

one of my least favourites to work, but great for playing passenger tetris

Its phrases like these that make me love a place like this, where you get a great insight into life at the coal face

 

[Saxonia]

I just don't know why the "powers that be" simply can't admit that this is one service that they got wrong, & go back to the old pre-Northern ways, ie Man Vic-Huddersfield-Wakefield. That service, certainly between Man Vic-Huddersfield desperately needs ramping up to a 30 minute frequency throughout the day (so, extend the Stalybridge turnback service, perhaps). A lot of passengers were very unhappy when the cord was cut at Huddersfield, & the through journey times have now increased by an unnaceptable level.
As regards the "Grand Tour", I have always maintained that this is a scandalous waste of precious dmu resources, given that the train between Selby-Wakefield-Leeds actually spends far more time sitting at stations than it does in actual running time - Northern simply do NOT have the luxury of an abundance of dmu's to be so carefree with, especially the 8 x 3 car 158's. It's high time that the Calder Valley service was just that - Calder Valley - it is one of Northern's highest profile routes, although you would hardly think so. There are ways to service Selby-Leeds-Bradford-Huddersfield-Wakefield other than the present ridiculous state of affairs - most regrettably, either Northern, WYPTE or DfT, or any combination thereof have placed it in the "too difficult to change" box, where it is likely to remain until the end of the present franchise.

 

[bluenoxid]

Tweaking it will not save resources. However, a good in depth look could release resources.

All Calder Valley services terminate at Man Vic (apart from the Rochdale). Why??? They can run it through to Southport, Wigan or even Liverpool. There is no need to leave trains idle at Man Vic blocking platforms when they can be given a reasonable amount of platform time (say 7 minutes) and run through to somewhere else (although the closer it is the better to prevent too many delays being transmitted)

The train terminates at Wakefield Westgate but platform dwell times and the return service cutting across the station could be removed by running it through to Leeds, with a possible call at Outwood. It might seem an odd use of resources but that might be better timed to meet the Selby service and run through, allowing the diagram to become fully integrated on its own. Clockwise might run through to Selby, whilst anticlockwise might terminate at Leeds.

Trying to splice it up is going to be more difficult than taking a sledgehammer to it and putting the pieces back together again. The Northern franchise is still split on East-West terms and it is holding the franchise back from providing an optimised set of services.

 

[Anvil1984]

Ah say the words Calder Valley........

Agreed mate, in an ideal world I'd have an extra service and hour from Man Vic - Leeds calling all stations to Huddersfield then Dewsbury and Leeds and have a truly semi-fast service and relieves a lot of traffic en-route but lack of units and hey-ho.
The fact that Wakefield to Man Vic was cut was down to relaibility and our friend PPM, however terminating at Kirkgate and putting passengers on the free bus accross town isnt acceptable but hey its not the end of the world.

Calder Valley (Man Vic) to Leeds needs to be treated better than it is at moment, we have units suitable for the route (155s and 156s) elsewhere on stopping services and 150s and 142s on the Calder Valley. The semi fasts could have in the past been extended on to a Liverpool however no point now due to electrification


Have I dragged this so off topic that I cant see the topic

 

[Eric]

Calder Valley (Man Vic) to Leeds needs to be treated better than it is at moment, we have units suitable for the route (155s and 156s) elsewhere on stopping services and 150s and 142s on the Calder Valley. The semi fasts could have in the past been extended on to a Liverpool however no point now due to electrification


Have I dragged this so off topic that I cant see the topic

I have to agree with you on the above.

We have three car 158's at Selby for 50 minutes while 142's/144's doing the semi-fast Manchester Victoria to Leeds.

It's madness.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sheffield-Barnsley-Penistone-Huddersfield-Halifax-Bradford.
Although this service would link major Yorkshire cities it would be faster to travel via Leeds from Barnsley and Sheffield but it would provide cross Huddersfield travel opportunities for Penistone, Denby Dale etc.

This I like

Bradford to Huddersfield = 40 minutes.

Huddersfield to Sheffield (semi-fast) = 60 minutes.

Under two hours and would compete with changing at Leeds.

 

[142094]

As for the 3 car 158s being used incorrectly I agree with that, there are services they are intended for which they are needed for, 1641 from Leeds (ex Blackpool) to York is horrendous and thats a 2 car but very managable with 3 car, its one of my least favourites to work, but great for playing passenger tetris.

The 16.41 used to be one of my trains back from work - terrible until Garforth. If this is a set that is contained on the YRK - BPN workings all day it should be simple enough to have it as a 3 car 158.

 

[Anvil1984]

None of the units on the York - Blackpool get swapped on to other duties til later in the night (barring last minute swaps), where one goes on to a Hull job and a set from Hull goes to Leeds to visit Neville Hill but there are way around that.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I just don't know why the "powers that be" simply can't admit that this is one service that they got wrong, & go back to the old pre-Northern ways, ie Man Vic-Huddersfield-Wakefield. That service, certainly between Man Vic-Huddersfield desperately needs ramping up to a 30 minute frequency throughout the day (so, extend the Stalybridge turnback service, perhaps). .

Please, no more stopping trains. The stopper sets off from each end (SYB or HUD) pretty much right behind an express, and by time it has dawdled around stopping everywhere and gets to the other end the next express is crawling along at caution right behind, often incurring delay.

 

[Eric]

Please, no more stopping trains. The stopper sets off from each end (SYB or HUD) pretty much right behind an express, and by time it has dawdled around stopping everywhere and gets to the other end the next express is crawling along at caution right behind, often incurring delay.

Where else can it stop?

It already stops at about 20+ stations.

 

[Nym]

Sooo, why don't we 4 track the Diggle route then?

Vic - Leeds 4tph, 2 fast, 1 slow, 1 via Brighouse & Dewsbry
Vic - Bradford via Huddersfeild 2tph
Huddersfeild - Wakfeild 1tph ??

 

[tbtc]

Sooo, why don't we 4 track the Diggle route then?

Vic - Leeds 4tph, 2 fast, 1 slow, 1 via Brighouse & Dewsbry
Vic - Bradford via Huddersfeild 2tph
Huddersfeild - Wakfeild 1tph ??

Its been talked about, doing the tunnels too.

IIRC one reason against it was that it'd slow down the existing TPE services. At the moment the two tracks are slewed across a "four track wide" trackbed, meaning they have the best possible curves (etc). Building four tracks would mean a tighter alignment, which would slow the main Manchester - Leeds services down. I'm not saying this is a good/bad thing, just that its been mentioned as a reason not to.

IMHO four tracking the Diggle route would be better than building the SELRAP line, as there is clear demand for more TPE services through the "core" transpennine route