LED Signals

[D Foster]

I may be rather late in the field here - but - I am wondering what impression(s) anyone might feel they would like (be safe to) express about the various different "new" LED running signals.
Are they "much of a muchness"? An improvement? A great improvement?
Thanks

 

[najaB]

I'm sure drivers will be along shortly to provide personal experiences, but what I've gathered from reading the forums is that overall they are more visible from a distance in rain/fog but some of the designs can dazzle when up close.

 

[scott118]

compared to semiphore, they are blindingly good, however that maybe because they are more, in line of sight in comparison...

 

[tsr]

Yes, they are dazzling at very close range, but try dispatching off the Down Slow starter at Norbury on a rainy night and then tell me you prefer the older colour lights to LEDs. Mostly they are a significant improvement, though there are a few risks (eg. different mounting positions of a single-lens LED being a tiny bit confusing).

 

[driver_m]

Depends on the type of LED. Dorman types are fine for me, but I hate the VMS ones. (These are the type fitted at Wolverhampton and don't have a lens) The VMS ones are dazzlingly bright at night.

 

[Crossover]

Are VMS the lightweight ones? I have always have found them a bit odd (and have the aspect repeated on the side too)
If Dorman ones are the ones I'm thinking of, they look a bit more tactile!

I've also seen drivers comment on here that LED is better when fitted as a filament replacement where the glass (presumably?) lens concentrates the light output

 

[Railsigns]

Are VMS the lightweight ones? I have always have found them a bit odd (and have the aspect repeated on the side too)
If Dorman ones are the ones I'm thinking of, they look a bit more tactile!

VMS manufactures both a lightweight and a conventional form of LED signal. So does Dorman.

 

[driver_m]

Are VMS the lightweight ones? I have always have found them a bit odd (and have the aspect repeated on the side too)
If Dorman ones are the ones I'm thinking of, they look a bit more tactile!

I've also seen drivers comment on here that LED is better when fitted as a filament replacement where the glass (presumably?) lens concentrates the light output

Yeah the side repeaters are on VMS ones. They look like a black box with no traditional looking lens on them. Those filament replacements you mentioned are very very good. Can tell one a mile off as they are actually green rather than the bluey-green of a filament signal.

Also I would mention the the ansaldo signals around Cheshire which are not brilliant either, mainly because they can go very dim. They have a bad lag with the AWS too where the magnet will still cause a horn activation for a good few seconds after a signal has changed to green.

 

[theageofthetra]

One problem I have noticed is that the various laminate layers and films in a Networker windscreen cause the light to scatter in particular from a distance two yellows merge into one (though fine when nearer and not bad enough to report). Anyone else experience this?

 

[D Foster]

The side repeaters are the same principle as the very early "pigs ears" on the first Colour Light signals used here in the UK. They were fitted to the CLs before the outer (clear) lenses were made with the hot-spot that can be set to deflect part of the light beam to whichever position is appropriate for Drivers to get a right-to-the-last-moment view of the aspect.

Are the Ansoldos around Chester the same as the ones toward Manchester out of Crewe?

Does anyone know what the strange bit of metal in front of each aspect on the Crewe Ansoldos is?

It may be well know already - but - I have been told that some (at least) of the first LED examples came from Australia - and were not arranged for our climate - so that the colours could go a bit wonky... But this has been corrected.

The "plug-and-play" Dorman "lollipop" lightweights can be picked up and carried by one man - sorry - "person". At least the standard height single ones can... I've done it - NOT around the track I might hasten to add.

Who's make of signals are they at Bicester North please?

Come to that... Anyone know what the strange cable loops in the tracks of the platform are?

The earliest LEDs I met on track were definitely good when facing them - but useless from behind... that is... With conventional filament lamp signals the beam of light reflected back off of OHLE stanchions - which meant that when walking down the track from behind a signal you could see where it was - even on the other side of the line. LEDs don't do that Initially a lot of people walked a lot of yards beyond the signal they wanted Not fun! even if it wasn't raining or blowing a gale.

Thanks all

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Yeah the side repeaters are on VMS ones. They look like a black box with no traditional looking lens on them. Those filament replacements you mentioned are very very good. Can tell one a mile off as they are actually green rather than the bluey-green of a filament signal.

Also I would mention the the ansaldo signals around Cheshire which are not brilliant either, mainly because they can go very dim. They have a bad lag with the AWS too where the magnet will still cause a horn activation for a good few seconds after a signal has changed to green.

Nice to know Ansaldo have been keeping up their usual standards to which we've become accustomed. I wonder how the Italians are taking the news Hitachi expect them to make products that aren't crap ?

 

[Railsigns]

Does anyone know what the strange bit of metal in front of each aspect on the Crewe Ansaldos is?

It's part of the hot-strip equivalent arrangement for close-up viewing, apparently.

 

[TheEdge]

As a guard they are good and bad. Good in that they are much easier to see. Bad that in some places they utterly obliterate any view of the train at night.

 

[tsr]

As a guard they are good and bad. Good in that they are much easier to see. Bad that in some places they utterly obliterate any view of the train at night.

It is possible to find that with other signals too - not just LEDs - and in fact it seems to be about the same for me. That's what happens when BILs are almost the same in colour as some signals, I guess.

 

[class 9]

One problem I have noticed is that the various laminate layers and films in a Networker windscreen cause the light to scatter in particular from a distance two yellows merge into one (though fine when nearer and not bad enough to report). Anyone else experience this?

Yes I experience the 2 yellows merging into 1 yellow at night from a distance, this is due to the brightness and the 2 lenses are closer together than older colour lights.

 

[theageofthetra]

I recall being sat at a set of temp battery powered LED traffic lights abroad where at night only about half the LED elements were illuminated-presumably to save the battery? I went past them again the next morning and all were illuminated.I wonder if this was ever considered in a rail application?

 

[D Foster]

More in the colonies and USA early battery powered signals - both electro-mechanical semaphores and light signals were quite often approach controlled - that is - they were dark until the approach track being occupied switched them on/woke them up.
I don't know if that was ever done in full in the UK in the same way. It would be interesting to know if it was - and where...
I'm pretty sure that it was the NER that used an electro-pneumatic system of semaphores in which occupation of a track circuit (or possible a treadle???) started up a carbonic gas system that provided the pressure to change the signals as required. Perhaps someone can provide some dates, locations and how it worked?
Regular road traffic lights - before LEDs - went to a lower light back-up lamp if the main filament failed - this enabled the police or highways people to see that the lamp needed replacing. You very rarely saw this in action - back then they changed the lamps pretty quick. So rare in fact that I can recall exactly where I saw it - only the once.
Rail signal lamps had two equal filaments. When the main one failed it triggered an audible alarm in the box plus a marker light. This was fine when there was one light each for each signal but a pain when there was only one for several - the S&T had to work their way round until they located which one had the dead filament.

 

[Railsigns]

More in the colonies and USA early battery powered signals - both electro-mechanical semaphores and light signals were quite often approach controlled - that is - they were dark until the approach track being occupied switched them on/woke them up.

What you refer to is called "approach lighting", approach control being something else entirely.

I don't know if that was ever done in full in the UK in the same way. It would be interesting to know if it was - and where...

Yes, it was frequently done in the UK to conserve battery power in outlying areas. Nowadays, where approach lit signals exist (there are about 30 of them in Scotland), it is for sighting reasons.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe some of the early LNER colour light installations used approach lighting. There is an accident report on the Great Central (Charwhelton I think) which talks about the signals being approach lit.

It is also sometimes used (particularly in Scotland) for signals on loops where there is no adjacent main line signal and a red might cause confusion to drivers of trains passing on the main line.

 

[theageofthetra]

Hi just to clarify my earlier post I was not referring to approach control, it appeared the temp traffic lights had some sort of light sensor which halved the number of illuminated LED's after dark. Not only does it save energy it also reduced dazzling- which can be an issue if driving in the dark and combined with the light scatter issue on some train windscreens I am surprised it wasn't considered.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Some on the Portsmouth direct are known as retina burners as they're so darn bright, yet others are quite dim by comparison an much more comfortable to look at.

Still don't think that they're as good as the old fixed lens one's with a tungsten filament bulb in though, you could find one of them in thick fog just by the powerful beam of colour in the mist/fog, these you can't.

 

[miami]

How well do they cope with ice and snow (if we ever get any)?

http://news.yahoo.com/japanese-led-traffic-lights-just-too-cool-snow-131555477--finance.html

Light-emitting diodes (LEDs) account for around 45 percent of all of Japan's stop-and-go signals and that proportion is growing as local authorities cotton on to their economising possibilities compared with regular incandescent lights.

But in wintery northern Japan the lights have encountered a problem -- drivers can't see them because they don't get warm enough to melt accumulated snow.

Are there heating elements built in?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Nope, they just get covered up with snow. Good eh?

 

[ComUtoR]

I prefer them.

I have the same experience as theageofthetrain and class 9. I also get a bit weirded out when I see a single head but it shows all 3 aspects and with the 4 aspect 2 head signals. Route knowledge really becomes important with things like that.

They also "blink" which can catch you out a few times.

 

[Crossover]

I recall being sat at a set of temp battery powered LED traffic lights abroad where at night only about half the LED elements were illuminated-presumably to save the battery? I went past them again the next morning and all were illuminated.I wonder if this was ever considered in a rail application?

I believe there may be something to dim the lights on road signals at night just to make them less dazzling
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

VMS manufactures both a lightweight and a conventional form of LED signal. So does Dorman.

Yeah the side repeaters are on VMS ones. They look like a black box with no traditional looking lens on them. Those filament replacements you mentioned are very very good. Can tell one a mile off as they are actually green rather than the bluey-green of a filament signal.

Also I would mention the the ansaldo signals around Cheshire which are not brilliant either, mainly because they can go very dim. They have a bad lag with the AWS too where the magnet will still cause a horn activation for a good few seconds after a signal has changed to green.

Can anyone post any photos of these various types of signal head? The ones that are on the Todmorden Curve are slightly odd looking things (almost American I'd say)

Here are some of the VMS Lightweight signals:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/in...tweight-signals-cheap-and-cheerful/?p=1024678
They have appeared in quite a few places. Peterborough has them, as does the newly resignalled line through Saxmundham and Newton-le-Willows. I think the Harrogate loop does too, though when I saw them, it was foggy and they were lighting up the mist quite spectacularly!

It can't be seen as too ideal that there is such a lag between the signal aspect changing and the AWS ramp giving a different indication!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nope, they just get covered up with snow. Good eh?

I'd never thought of that as an issue! I guess there are always comprimises to be had!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Pretty serious compromise isn't it! Might change their attitude when a driver misses out one and ends up in the back of another train.

 

[BestWestern]

As a guard they are good and bad. Good in that they are much easier to see. Bad that in some places they utterly obliterate any view of the train at night.

I agree. Can think of one location in particular where it is preferable to move to the middle of the train for dispatch, in order to obtain a view of the front half against the glaring signal.

 

[miami]

Pretty serious compromise isn't it! Might change their attitude when a driver misses out one and ends up in the back of another train.

Quite, it's not as big a deal with car traffic lights as when there's that much snow car drivers tend to be travelling far slower and in any case only drive when they can see their path is clear, regardless of a "proceed if safe" signal.

I'm surprised there haven't been any incidents to be honest

 

[FordFocus]

The VMS ones are horrific. It seems someone in a workshop wanted to make it as bright as possible to be seen without having the experience of driving a train at night.

Dormans are okay but I wish they had a setting that dimmed them at night.

 

[Railsigns]

Can anyone post any photos of these various types of signal head?

Dorman signals at the top; VMS at the bottom.

Lightweight models on the right.