LED lights onboard

[AM9]

It can be. I know others will call it dingy, but I find the Pendolino's subdued warm white with spots to be quite nice and cosy myself.

I call it dingy, or at least a poor copy of the Ovaltine adverts.

Unless going in for fancy changing light colours, general lighting should be a neutral daylight colour, esomewhere between 5500K and 6500K, which is natural for uK daylight. They should also have a CRI greater than 90%. Better quality LEDs are marginally more expensive, - especially when bought in large quantities.
The main cost driver of lighting in a commercial environment isn't the lamps nor their consumption, it's the labour cost and disruption of replacing them.

 

[supervc-10]

They should also have a CRI greater than 90%.

So much this. Modern LEDs are pretty much perfect for their CRI (colour rendering index), or at least close enough that almost nobody would notice. A poor CRI is why early 'white' LEDs had weird 'grey' light, which is very off putting.

A 'neutral' colour temperature would be ideal IMO. My Google Home system calls it 'ivory', which is just on the blue side of pure white. Although changing the colour temperature through the day would be perfect.

 

[AM9]

So much this. Modern LEDs are pretty much perfect for their CRI (colour rendering index), or at least close enough that almost nobody would notice. A poor CRI is why early 'white' LEDs had weird 'grey' light, which is very off putting.

A 'neutral' colour temperature would be ideal IMO. My Google Home system calls it 'ivory', which is just on the blue side of pure white. Although changing the colour temperature through the day would be perfect.

Changing of colour lights could be justified on trains that passengers were likely to spend long periods (say over 3 hours) on so that would include GWR & LNER IETs as well as the Avanti replacements for class 390s. The problem is that a colour changing installation would need two or more different colour LEDs and control circuits to vary the drive to each type to effect colour change. Not difficult in the context of a long distance train, but for metro/outer suburban/local rural train types, would be an unnecessary cost where journeys are normally quite short in duration.

 

[supervc-10]

Definitely. Long distance trains is where I was thinking, not suburban units.

 

[AlexNL]

The problem is that a colour changing installation would need two or more different colour LEDs and control circuits to vary the drive to each type to effect colour change. Not difficult in the context of a long distance train, but for metro/outer suburban/local rural train types, would be an unnecessary cost where journeys are normally quite short in duration.

Yet the Dutch railways (NS) have done just that for their latest fleet of commuter trains, the CAF built "SNG" (Civity platform). The colour temperature of the lighting in the vestibules and in the ceiling changes throughout the day: colder white in the morning, neutral white during the afternoon, warmer white in the evening.

 

[Mintona]

Ever tried an old FGW HST? (Not in their short Westcountry form, the lighting has been replaced)

Yes, more than a few times. I can’t say the lighting ever bothered me. Maybe I’ve just forgotten.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless going in for fancy changing light colours, general lighting should be a neutral daylight colour, esomewhere between 5500K and 6500K, which is natural for uK daylight.

Is that what you have at home? You do see the odd house with daylight colours, but very few. 6500K is very stark and blueish indeed, it's a sunny morning and the daylight coming into my window is much warmer than that - 4000-5000K at a guess. Why do people want to make the insides of vehicles seem like a dull, cloudy day with the emotional downside that brings?

If not, why do you think it's good that a train is stark and your home is cosy?

 

[edwin_m]

It can be. I know others will call it dingy, but I find the Pendolino's subdued warm white with spots to be quite nice and cosy myself.

To me it looks like the inside of a pub before the smoking ban (and that's not a positive comment). And whose idea was it to put blue lights above the luggage racks?

 

[43096]

It can be. I know others will call it dingy, but I find the Pendolino's subdued warm white with spots to be quite nice and cosy myself.

It would be fine if there was adequate natural light, but there isn’t.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be fine if there was adequate natural light, but there isn’t.

TBH I find it nicest at night when there's none. It's lovely, warm, cosy and subdued, and if you want extra light to read you've got a reading light above you. Not all of us like sitting in a dentist's chair.

Best by far is the back of coach A where it's even more subdued as the tubes don't reach the back row of seats.

 

[peters]

LED lighting is more energy efficient and the lamps have a much longer lifetime than other light sources do, using those makes sense. LED lighting technology has improved significantly over the years and costs have gone down significantly (just look at what some RYET bulbs costs at IKEA, practically nothing).

I'm sure my local council aren't the only ones who have replaced street light heads with LED fittings, as while there's a significant cost to changing over the fittings the long term cost is lower due to reduced electricity consumption and LEDs lasting longer than traditional lights.

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This would require larger windows, which would compromise structural integrity.
Manchester Metrolink vehicles have huge windows and white interiors, and the lights still have to come on in dark sections.

Even at former British Rail stations on the Metrolink network there isn't a lot of natural light coming in from the outside, it's better in the city centre as long where glass shelters are used opposed to canopies attached to brick station buildings.

 

[43096]

TBH I find it nicest at night when there's none. It's lovely, warm, cosy and subdued, and if you want extra light to read you've got a reading light above you. Not all of us like sitting in a dentist's chair.

Best by far is the back of coach A where it's even more subdued as the tubes don't reach the back row of seats.

That makes sense - it’s those small windows that are the issue.

 

[Ethano92]

Lamps are often burning unnecessarily
Natural light should be used as far as possible, if train interiors were white less artificial light would be needed

The 710s (and I'd assume all subsequent Aventuras) have 'intelligent lighting' which brighten and dim. In reality, especially during summer months the Aventuras have large enough windows to just use natural light except in tunnels. Even the Desiro cities have bright white interiors and large windows that would probably allow the same. Maybe this would be less possible on longer distance trains with smaller windows.

On TER in France (more regional services), whenever I go to see my family, fairly often the lights are simply turned off during the day. Once we were left in total darkness for a fair bit as we entered a tunnel and the lights remained off until near the end. On a lot of newer buses in London at least, you'll often find the lights simply turned off. No reason for lights to be constantly on really but I suppose it's not the most pressing issue.

 

[Mikey C]

The 710s (and I'd assume all subsequent Aventuras) have 'intelligent lighting' which brighten and dim. In reality, especially during summer months the Aventuras have large enough windows to just use natural light except in tunnels. Even the Desiro cities have bright white interiors and large windows that would probably allow the same. Maybe this would be less possible on longer distance trains with smaller windows.

On TER in France (more regional services), whenever I go to see my family, fairly often the lights are simply turned off during the day. Once we were left in total darkness for a fair bit as we entered a tunnel and the lights remained off until near the end. On a lot of newer buses in London at least, you'll often find the lights simply turned off. No reason for lights to be constantly on really but I suppose it's not the most pressing issue.

From memory the lights upstairs on London buses are usually off during the day, but then buses don't go through the long tunnels that trains do. And even downstairs, during the day time often they're on only on one side

 

[dorsetdesiro]

The worst of all train interior lighting would have to be "exposed LED" in "dots" as on Siemens Desiro City or in clear tubes as on some class 150s for instance. Feels cold & clinical, together with ironing boards & no carpets making this experience more like a hospital waiting room!

The best sort of LED lighting should be concealed behind diffusers as on many newer stock - Hitachi AT200-300, Aventra 701 & 720, Stadler FLIRTs also retrofits as on TPE 185s.

The lighting on existing stock can be pretty good like the Desiro UKs, Electrostars, late 80s-early 90s BR.

I love the class 442's lighting which beam through opaque fixtures giving a soft glow. Not sure about now, probably LED now?

I note the lighting fixture form varies considerably on class 158s of all operators as with HST Mark 3s. I really like the GWR & SWR version, using diffusers, which gives a cosy atmosphere at nighttime.

 

[Mikey C]

Train lighting will always be a compromise, especially when it's getting dark outside. If you want to read a book, you want more light; if you want to watch something on your screen, you want less light; if you want to look out of the window or sleep, you want very little light!

 

[supervc-10]

The Metrolink vehicles seem to have light sensors, as they will come on and off going through tunnels, with a similar sort of delay to a car's auto lights. When I was buying my previous car auto lights were a £75 option, it's not difficult tech to implement. A similar system which adjusts the intensity of the lighting would be good IMO.

@Mikey C totally agree- like everything in train comfort, it's a compromise. Different people have different wants and needs.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

In regards to BR Mark 3 lighting, I think I remember the Greater Anglia sets having the original 1970s light fixtures which were mini fluorscent tubes behind plastic louvers which were nice.

I were shocked on another journey, when GA refurbished their Mark 3s, replacing the 1970s fixtures with longitudal lighting running down middle of carriage (as on Desiro City) which were much brighter! Probably LED, at least these were opaque. Looking back the Mark 3 refurb may be a waste of time as the new Stadler FLIRTs have largely replaced these quite recently.

 

[Devonian]

Bright does not have to be blue, but over the last decade the change in technology has been rapid, and bright warm-toned LED lights are relatively new. Even ten years ago it was difficult, or very expensive, to get any LED lamps that offered the same brightness as incandescent or fluorescent lamps taking up the same space at a reasonable price.

Northern have ordered a job lot of "fake tubes" with nasty blue daylight colour lighting (see the FGW HST lighting which is the absolute worst to ever disgrace any UK rail vehicle)

Since the LEDs that are used for lighting are usually based on blue LEDs, 'colder', bluer lights offer the best lightower ratio, so early direct replacements for fluorescent tubes (such as the infamous 'fake tubes' or 'dots in tubes'), for example, tended to be blue and 'cold' just to achieve the equivalent brightness. Even now, bluer lights are often brighter for a given power input, or cheaper for a specific brightness, which is why LED streetlights are usually in the cool 'moonlight' spectrum (though I've seen warmer ones recently).

Since LEDs spread first to commercial premises such as offices and workshops, which often used very bright, cool white fluorescent lamps for task lighting anyway, bluer 'daylight' tones with a typical colour temperature of 5000 Kelvin were often seen as a benefit: most business owners are more concerned about productivity than making the place cosy. Many people are now used to this quality of light.

It's only since LEDs have moved into hotels and to the domestic realm that there has been significant development of warmer tones closer to the 2700 Kelvin colour temperature of incandescent bulbs (it's less than ten years since Philips managed to market the first LED bulb equivalent to a 60W filament lamp).

What is suitable for a train? As long as it meets the brightness standards - which both warm and cold tones can - it depends if you want to create an industrial or domestic atmosphere, or something in between. It is noteworthy that FGW replaced their cool white lights with warm white lights in their GWR "gentlemen's club" HST first class refurbishment to create a warmer atmosphere (and made the lights dim and brighten automatically depending on the amount of daylight), and that IETs use a compromise colour temperature somewhere between daylight and incandescent.

For what it's worth, I greatly prefer a warmer tone (with a good colour rendering range) to a cooler tone, because I like to relax on trains rather than attempt to assemble electronics, paint landscapes or conduct surgery. As an aside, I worked for a company where we specified warm white lights because the 'cosier' ambience cheered people up and anecdotally reduced requests to turn on the heating in the spring and autumn!

 

[peters]

Definitely and absolutely not. Northern have ordered a job lot of "fake tubes" with nasty blue daylight colour lighting (see the FGW HST lighting which is the absolute worst to ever disgrace any UK rail vehicle), including the "floodlight in your face" on the 155s, they are horribly stark particularly on most units that don't have any diffusers. The same lighting is fitted in the same context on the 313s used on the Moorgate line (all gone now?) It really is truly awful.

There was a type of bus I used to catch regularly, I think it was an Optare bus, which had a few individual coloured LED lights (green I think) alongside white lights, you only noticed the coloured LEDs were there if you looked directly up but it helped create the feeling you were on a well lit bus without it being too bright or too dark. Incidentally the seats were black on that bus which may have had an effect.

 

[AM9]

Is that what you have at home? You do see the odd house with daylight colours, but very few. 6500K is very stark and blueish indeed, it's a sunny morning and the daylight coming into my window is much warmer than that - 4000-5000K at a guess. Why do people want to make the insides of vehicles seem like a dull, cloudy day with the emotional downside that brings?

If not, why do you think it's good that a train is stark and your home is cosy?

No, I have domestic lighting for evening use usually at 2700-3000K except for the kitchen where I prefer 4000-5000K. Train lighting is not a domestic environment though, and especially in (sub)urban areas the lighting is there all day and for more hours should be similar to the natural light environment. I don't regard rail travel as emotional so the lighting is purely there to illuminate the interior of vehicles.
6500K is not blueish, it is at the upper end of balanced the white daylight range, (5000-6500K). In short journey vehicles, it is optimised to keep passengers alert and focused.

 

[Mikey C]

The Borismasters use individual LED clusters, possibly to replicate the original separate tungsten bulbs

Personally I find them a bit dazzling and prefer the more conventional lighting on other buses

 

[AM9]

The Borismasters use individual LED clusters, possibly to replicate the original separate tungsten bulbs

Personally I find them a bit dazzling and prefer the more conventional lighting on other buses

"Conventional lighting" is now LEDs.

 

[peters]

"Conventional lighting" is now LEDs.

Probably depends where you're travelling. While some of Northern's "refurbished" trains have the LED lighting, many still don't, especially not the one I was on last Monday which had traditional tubes and a number of them were out. I think there's also a maximum age for buses in London but elsewhere if they allow wheelchair passengers to board they are fine to use whatever their age is.

 

[supervc-10]

Since the LEDs that are used for lighting are usually based on blue LEDs, 'colder', bluer lights offer the best lightower ratio, so early direct replacements for fluorescent tubes (such as the infamous 'fake tubes' or 'dots in tubes'), for example, tended to be blue and 'cold' just to achieve the equivalent brightness. Even now, bluer lights are often brighter for a given power input, or cheaper for a specific brightness, which is why LED streetlights are usually in the cool 'moonlight' spectrum (though I've seen warmer ones recently).

This YouTube video from the wonderful Alec at Technology Connections explains well why sodium lights are rubbish at night, and why 'daylight' white lights are better, due to the way our eyes work.

Of course, the interior of a train carriage is not a roadway. However, the safety aspect is interesting, in particular how people respond to it. I can imagine that if you are a single woman on a fairly empty late night train, that the bluer light might make you feel safer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Metrolink vehicles seem to have light sensors, as they will come on and off going through tunnels, with a similar sort of delay to a car's auto lights. When I was buying my previous car auto lights were a £75 option, it's not difficult tech to implement. A similar system which adjusts the intensity of the lighting would be good IMO.

In environmentally obsessed Germany, the Hamburg U- and S-Bahn units had this feature in the 1990s!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Sep 2020 ==

No, I have domestic lighting for evening use usually at 2700-3000K except for the kitchen where I prefer 4000-5000K. Train lighting is not a domestic environment though, and especially in (sub)urban areas the lighting is there all day and for more hours should be similar to the natural light environment. I don't regard rail travel as emotional so the lighting is purely there to illuminate the interior of vehicles.

Whereas I regard it as somewhere one should be able to relax like at home, at least on InterCity type trains. Not kept alert.

 

[Mikey C]

"Conventional lighting" is now LEDs.

I meant conventional as in the shape of the fittings, as other buses have LED "tubes" under diffusers

 

[James James]

You don't even need LED's for this horror. You can notice the same thing walking between an EW IV (warm) and EC carriage (super harsh) on SBB trains - certainly it's quite jarring in the evenings. For most of the day it doesn't matter, but evenings are quite stark (and not helpful for getting ready to sleep). Fortunately the EC carriages are quite rare on domestic trains.

 

[Devonian]

This YouTube video from the wonderful Alec at Technology Connections explains well why sodium lights are rubbish at night, and why 'daylight' white lights are better, due to the way our eyes work.

Of course, the interior of a train carriage is not a roadway.
However, the safety aspect is interesting, in particular how people respond to it. I can imagine that if you are a single woman on a fairly empty late night train, that the bluer light might make you feel safer.

The safety aspect of LED lighting for street lighting is very much down to its broader spectrum that is more suited to the eye than the extremely limited spectrum of the old sodium lamps, and that's true of both warmer and cooler LEDs. Interestingly, one of the reports cited in the video by Technology Connections gives slightly more favourable 'subjective' responses to 4000K lamps than 6500K lamps in terms of gloominess, warmth, comfort and 'liking' the lights, but slightly better responses to 6500K lamps in terms of clarity. Wokingham council (not well known for scientific research, I know) also looked into colour temperature of street lighting: they also note that 6500K offers better clarity and about 10% greater luminance per watt, but have plumped for 4000K as a 'neutral' compromise between clarity and appearance/effect on circadian rhythms.

I suspect that the single woman on the empty train will be more reassured by the bright, diffused lighting of modern trains (whether fluorescent or LED) than by its colour: but it would be interesting to see if cosier or colder tones do affect perceptions of safety. Unfortunately, a quick search only shows up tests on poultry, which isn't much help!

 

[Crossover]

The horrid blueish light went with the nasty purple panelling to make it particularly unpleasant - shame because the actual seats (Gr*mmer) were excellent.

It was notable that the light was so blue that it made a cloudy day over Slough look warm and welcoming. Maybe the Slough Tourist Board had to do with it Technically the colour is "daylight white", but in most weather conditions actual daylight is much warmer.

Agreed - they Standard Class interiors on the GWR HST sets were among the worst of any train, whilst their 1st Class was among the best!

It can be. I know others will call it dingy, but I find the Pendolino's subdued warm white with spots to be quite nice and cosy myself.

I am OK with the Pendos, but not in a pantograph coach - I don't suffer from claustrophobia, but the lower roof and weird lighting aren't great