Leaving Early

[313103]

How would NR know if a train left early - and even if they did, how is the ordinary passenger to know if this has led to any action being taken? I don't want any member of staff to be disciplined I would just want it not to happen again. This has happened to me before - not often, maybe 3 or 4 times in 30 years. It is annoying when you've got an hour till the next train and have to explain why you're late for work. "Train left early" - "Pull the other one".....

Network Rail would know what has happened as they operate the exact same system as the TOCS. Would you like to know what happens to the staff if you report an incident? If so i would like to know what happens to a member of the public who makes a false claim against a member of staff ( i have been a victim of this, CCTV cleared me but only after i had been suspended from duty for four days!) Perhaps if you wish to complain you could ask the member of staff for his/her telephone number or get there address so you can contact them.

I still have a letter on file (same as a please explain and telling me not to do it again as formal disciplinary action WILL be taken) and this is despite me telling them that i went by my watch at the correct time, that i requested the cctv from the station, and cctv from the train to prove that what i was alleged to have done. The cctv was was not forthcoming and this is based on a person reporting me for leaving a station 1 minute early and trapping a child in the doors (class 378 but why let facts get in the way of having a rant). This on a service where the next train is 7 minutes behind.

Now none of my trains leave early for any reason, so if we get turned at Gunnersbury and control say leave straight away and wait at South Acton because you will block the district line, i say to them that i have a letter on my file telling me that should i leave a station early formal disciplinary action will be taken against me. I will now sit at Gunnersbury waiting the scheduled time
even if it means waiting 10 minutes and blocking the line into Richmond.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I can understand a guard believing she/he had left at the correct time and then denying it when challenged - as you note, its easy to do and will happen from time to time, that's life and people make mistakes.

I'm not sure, however, if it is 'trivial'. On some occasions, missing a train that left early could be pretty darn serious.

according to most TOCs they want the doors shut 30 secs before departure now i i misread my watch by say 2 mins plus the 30 secs that would be 3 mins by Network Rail time (they dont do seconds ive been told)

now would that guard be done for even more minutes?

 

[The Planner]

Depends on what part of the minute it is. Say TRUST sees it as 20:01:59 and the departure is meant to be 20:02:00 then TRUST reports 1 early depending on berth offsets. TRUST sees it as 20:02:59 and you are on time, it is one of the foibles of the system.

 

[Mojo]

If that is so, would Delay Repay be payable in the event of early running? You would have thought so, but I suspect the clerk processing the application would look at the TRUST for that day and not see any delay.

I was offered compensation by CrossCountry a few years ago after the train I usually catch to work departed four minutes early and I sent an email to customer relations.

 

[Roylang]

according to most TOCs they want the doors shut 30 secs before departure now i i misread my watch by say 2 mins plus the 30 secs that would be 3 mins by Network Rail time (they dont do seconds ive been told)

now would that guard be done for even more minutes?

But surely Network Rail do not know what time you shut the doors, simply the time that you leave?

Roy

 

[ANorthernGuard]

But surely Network Rail do not know what time you shut the doors, simply the time that you leave?

Roy

Network Rail don't but if you get marked down as leaving early the bosses can download from the otmr and see exactly when you have done everything.

 

[cuccir]

I can understand a guard believing she/he had left at the correct time and then denying it when challenged - as you note, its easy to do and will happen from time to time, that's life and people make mistakes.

I'm not sure, however, if it is 'trivial'. On some occasions, missing a train that left early could be pretty darn serious.

according to most TOCs they want the doors shut 30 secs before departure now i i misread my watch by say 2 mins plus the 30 secs that would be 3 mins by Network Rail time (they dont do seconds ive been told)

now would that guard be done for even more minutes?

I don't bloody know, I was just pointing out that early running is not trivial, as you claimed. I doubt any passenger would want/hope/expect a guard to have serious disciplinary action for leaving early. But if there's an operational error which effects passengers - and leaving early is a non trivial operational error - I don't see a problem with a passenger complaining, irrespective of any TOC monitoring systems

 

[ANorthernGuard]

A Disciplinary for a simple mistake of a couple of minutes is not trivial (especially to the guard that made a simple error) complaints of this nature can put people out of jobs for what...3 minutes! some people forget we are human beings that can make an error occasionally to lambast someone for a stupid error lik that is just plan trivial, maybe if the OP gets a job as a guard like he says he will find out just how easy it is to make such a mistake.

 

[ukrob]

As far as I can see, nobody has said a guard should have disciplinary action taken against them for making a simple error (in this case leaving early). If that is what would happen - then it is the TOC's procedures that need to change - not to be telling people not to complain.

I have complained about this myself, before you blast me, it was about one particular guard who did it for several months (not with Northern I should add) - and enough was enough when I saw him giving the driver two, hanging out the back cab four minutes early - meaning I missed my connection.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

As far as I can see, nobody has said a guard should have disciplinary action taken against them for making a simple error (in this case leaving early). If that is what would happen - then it is the TOC's procedures that need to change - not to be telling people not to complain.

I have complained about this myself, before you blast me, it was about one particular guard who did it for several months (not with Northern I should add) - and enough was enough when I saw him giving the driver two, hanging out the back cab four minutes early - meaning I missed my connection.

Now thats different if it has been going on for a long time that is clearly someone who is doing it purposely and I am surprised they have got away with it for so long, its just my opinion but it seems that the guard in this discussion really thought he was on time.

No one would have to mention that they should hAve a disciplinary as that would be the probable conclusion (hopefully just a suitable conversation)

 

[ukrob]

Yes in this case it seems that the guard in this case thought he was on time - and if there was any action taken against him that would be wrong in my opinion - but if any action was taken, that is down to the TOC being too hard on him.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Yes in this case it seems that the guard in this case thought he was on time - and if there was any action taken against him that would be wrong in my opinion - but if any action was taken, that is down to the TOC being too hard on him.

If the guard in question works for First...may god have mercy on his soul

 

[IanXC]

Given that departure times are logged automatically, though, is there any need or benefit from reporting such instances to the TOC?

Am I right in thinking that in some locations data is collected by the track circuits etc, but in others it is manually recorded by the signaller?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as I can see, nobody has said a guard should have disciplinary action taken against them for making a simple error (in this case leaving early). If that is what would happen - then it is the TOC's procedures that need to change - not to be telling people not to complain.

Couldn't agree more. It shouldn't be that *every* complaint about a staff member, significant or insignificant, substantiated or unsubstantiated automatically leads to the formal disciplinary process. If this is how some TOCs operate then clearly they need to change their processes.

 

[The Planner]

Am I right in thinking that in some locations data is collected by the track circuits etc, but in others it is manually recorded by the signaller?

The majority of the locations record off the track circuits at signals but the older signal boxes and most freight yards do manually report in TRUST.

 

[Redahead]

Yep we can have that on a few jobs and the other regular one on our diagrams is the good old working timetable, but heck who cares about that when a member of railway staff canbe attempted to be dropped in it, Get proof or don't bother, I wouldn't accuse anyone of anything without proof, even an unfounded allegation can stay on an employees record.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


As I CLEARLY stated, if the guard in question had left early he would get hauled over the coals by his Conductor Team Manager (CTM) as Network Rail would report it and the TOC concerned would be fined heavily as it would be a cancellation, that is common knowledge, there was no need to complain.

I love working in the rail industry. However, the prevalence of attitudes like this is a real downer for me. I am professional, and occasionally I make mistakes. I understand that customers get annoyed with staff and TOCs. This ultra-defensive "the customer is always wrong - we're the railway so it's all different to any other industry" attitude is rife, and it's pathetic. As a largely DOO driver I give my customers as good a service as possible, and the important thing is, even if nothing HAS gone wrong, if the customer PERCEIVES that something has gone wrong, then they need to be treated very carefully and with respect and understanding.

I find the statement "heck who cares about that when a member of railway staff can be attempted to be dropped in it" a stunning attitude to hold, for someone with public contact as the key part of their job, and I am offended by it as a rail professional.

I daresay this will cause a firestorm of protest. Oh well. Get over yourselves.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I love working in the rail industry. However, the prevalence of attitudes like this is a real downer for me. I am professional, and occasionally I make mistakes. I understand that customers get annoyed with staff and TOCs. This ultra-defensive "the customer is always wrong - we're the railway so it's all different to any other industry" attitude is rife, and it's pathetic. As a largely DOO driver I give my customers as good a service as possible, and the important thing is, even if nothing HAS gone wrong, if the customer PERCEIVES that something has gone wrong, then they need to be treated very carefully and with respect and understanding.

I find the statement "heck who cares about that when a member of railway staff can be attempted to be dropped in it" a stunning attitude to hold, for someone with public contact as the key part of their job, and I am offended by it as a rail professional.

I daresay this will cause a firestorm of protest. Oh well. Get over yourselves.

No need to "get over myself" thank you. I'm actually quite happy in my employment and for your information I treat all my passengers with respect and courtesy be offended all you like 99.9% of my passengers are very happy with my service and professionalism, however like everyone on here I am ntitled to my opinion, I have already stated IMO that the guard honestly believed he was on time and even tho he was out of line with the slightly p**sed off attitude to complain about him was (IMO) going too far for a trivial act, now I have also stated that if someone has been known to do it before then that is a completely different kettle of fish and should be reported, big difference

 

[richw]

how does the passenger know if the guard left early knowingly or unknowingly to complain.
Admittedly i'm sure i've seen signs somewhere stating that passengers must arrive x mins before departure!

 

[Roylang]

A Disciplinary for a simple mistake of a couple of minutes is not trivial (especially to the guard that made a simple error) complaints of this nature can put people out of jobs for what...3 minutes! some people forget we are human beings that can make an error occasionally to lambast someone for a stupid error lik that is just plan trivial, maybe if the OP gets a job as a guard like he says he will find out just how easy it is to make such a mistake.

I am fully in agreement that disciplinary is out of order for a simple mistake and that the TOCs should be using knowledge of such instances to look at how to improve for the future, considering training, improved operating practices etc.

That said, and to show the possible impact from a customer side, the impact of a train leaving may cost more than one job for a customer. I run a business that employs staff. The nature of our business is such that we have a few high-value contracts. A train leaving early could mean that I miss a flight, that I need to attend a meeting, that could result in us losing work and see me having to lay of several people.

As a result of delays to trains early in my journey I have made flights by the skin of my teeth, despite leaving what should be plenty of time. For me to get to the airport by train takes four separate trains, I typically aim to get to the airport 2 1/2 before a flight and enjoy the lounge . One train leaving early after a delay elsewhere and...

To date, such a case of losing work is hypothetical, maybe one day it will not be.

Roy

 

[JohnB_]

The complaint was made not just because the guard left early but in the way he dealt with the OP when asked about it. He denied he did, then admitted he did because no one was on the platform. When it was pointed out myself and the OP were trying to board the train, he denied he saw us even though he looked right at us.

It is on that basis the main bulk of the complaint was made. Had he offered any kind of explanation, like he was told to leave early, we would of taken it as truth, as we had no reason to disbelieve him, but it was just his general attitude and care free nature towards us that prompted the complaint.

 

[table38]

Admittedly i'm sure i've seen signs somewhere stating that passengers must arrive x mins before departure!

There are a couple of signs to that effect at Lancaster...

http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/2011/08/pointless-signs-lancaster.html