Least disappointing new Rolling Stock?

[Russel]

You really think the seats on 730 is better than 350?

Personal opinion/taste, but yes, I do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2026 ==

It's light years ahead of the 720, though. We were so lucky that the bullet of the originally proposed 730/1 (which would have been the same inside as a 720) was dodged.

This is the first I've heard of the 730/1s, when was that proposed? But I agree, that would have been awful.

Though it does explain the jump from 730/0 to /2.
The 730s are what the 720s should have been.

 

[Trainz6013]

The 385s and 755s for me, wasn't expecting much from either but ended up quite impressed with them

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the first I've heard of the 730/1s, when was that proposed? But I agree, that would have been awful.

They were actually ordered and I believe at least one was built and fitted out like that then converted later to a /2, I think I remember seeing it parked at Crewe and thinking it looked grim. However with COVID and changes to travel patterns, WMT renegotiated the order to have a larger number of 730/0s (ending Class 350 operation on local services in the West Midlands) and a few more /2s as well.

Though it does explain the jump from 730/0 to /2.
The 730s are what the 720s should have been.

Agreed.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Most modern rolling stock is let down by the passenger cabin.

Look at the Aventra family. The 720 is absolutely horrific, and that's purely because of the 3+2 seating: the seats are too narrow, the aisle is too narrow, the legroom is non-existent. I've not been on a 730 but I presume they are more like the 2+2 bays on the 345, which are really very comfortable. The Aventra platform is, underneath it all, a good train.

Same with the 700/707/717 Desiro City trains. The actual trains are good trains, Siemens make good kit. But the seating is also absolutely horrific, narrow seats wedged into the wall then a huge massive aisle. The 707 not having a toilet was also a bizarre choice to make on a modern train.

I like the 195 and the 197, the only trouble with both of those trains is that they're not big enough. I know that the 195/0 at 124 seats is, nominally, a small capacity upgrade on the 142 and 144 units it replaced, but it is still too small. Same with the 197, 116 seats (due to the aborted first class/premier standard cabin) simply isn't enough. Weirdly, though, I'm more ambivalent about the 331: better than a 323, yes, but not a patch on a 333 or even a 321.

 

[tfw756rider]

I know that the 195/0 at 124 seats is, nominally, a small capacity upgrade on the 142 and 144 units it replaced, but it is still too small. Same with the 197, 116 seats (due to the aborted first class/premier standard cabin) simply isn't enough.

Isn't the 116 seats in a 2-car 197 (vs. 124 in a 2-car 195) due to the 197's catering cupboard? The ex-Standard Plus cabin is only in some 3-car 197s, which have 174 seats as a result, rather than the 188 seats in the 3-car 197s that don't have the cabin.

 

[bramling]

With tongue in cheek (a bit!) to a lot of rail enthusiasts, everything will be a disappointment if it doesn't have seats stuffed with horse hair, incandescent light bulbs and mahogany walls, and be at least 10 carriages long, hauled by a steam loco.

There’s nothing inherently wrong with that. What seems to be an issue is that new rolling stock stopped improving around 15 years ago. So for example before that it was possible to be sad about the Mk1 EMUs going yet get on a Connex 375 and think “this is actually really nice”, and also get a feeling that whoever specified it wanted to provide something of genuinely high quality. Same before that with transitions like 165>168/170, 317>365, even the Voyager fleets albeit they included a few silly design features which spoiled them.

By contrast, the 2010s and 2020s have been dominated by a feeling of poor quality and specifying as if to resemble a distress purchase, where rail passengers appear to merit the ambience of a run-down 1970s London council block. The standard class interior of the class 700 typifyies this in spades with its brutal austere fixtures and ambience.

One can’t help but come away with the feeling that those behind all this despise rail passengers, which seems to reflect the modern feeling that politicians despise the British population.

Whilst in general I think renationalisation is probably the right thing to be doing, I’m nervous as it seems to be the DfT’s influence that has been responsible for a lot of the malaise over the last generation or so. It’s somewhat ironic that one of the most maligned operators, Connex, specified what has since privatisation probably ended up being the least disappointing new train, in the form of the class 375s.

 

[GEC465]

If you don't mind me asking, are you a child (or child sized)? You are the first person I've heard suggesting that those are in any way good - the seating is just too tight in both dimensions (legroom and width) for even an average adult.

5ft 10 used to commute on them virtually every day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2026 ==

You really think the seats on 730 is better than 350?

Second this.
Legroom is horrific

 

[Tetchytyke]

Isn't the 116 seats in a 2-car 197 (vs. 124 in a 2-car 195) due to the 197's catering cupboard?

Yes, I think you’re probably right.

I’m nervous as it seems to be the DfT’s influence that has been responsible for a lot of the malaise over the last generation or so.

Agreed. There seems to have been a push from the DfT to have austere train interiors, as though everything should be as basic as possible to avoid wasting taxpayer money. The 700s are absolutely awful inside and seem to have been designed purely to look austere. Slightly better seats, or even just more sensible spacing, surely wouldn’t have cost any more money.

It’s somewhat ironic that one of the most maligned operators, Connex, specified what has since privatisation probably ended up being the least disappointing new train, in the form of the class 375s.

They also ended up with the 376, which is an objectively awful train.

 

[Sorcerer]

Haven't been on a great deal new stock yet, but I was fairly pleased with the Class 397 when I used it on a Liverpool-Glasgow round trip last year. The Class 195s are also pretty good for what they are, but then it doesn't take much to improve on a Pacer. Any appreciation I have for that stock is the sheer novelty of a being a bus on rails. Also the 807s are pretty good as far as IETs go even if they're still inferior to the Pendolino.

 

[bramling]

They also ended up with the 376, which is an objectively awful train.

To be fair, I think the 376 was more a victim of being specified at a time when there wasn’t great experience at designing a modern inner-suburban train. Hence why as a first attempt it wasn’t a great outcome. It didn’t then help that they have remained at the “do-minimum” South eastern franchise ever since, so none of the shortcomings have ever been addressed (which brings us back to DFT, given how much time this operation has spent in the public sector since Connex days).

 

[Russel]

They were actually ordered and I believe at least one was built and fitted out like that then converted later to a /2, I think I remember seeing it parked at Crewe and thinking it looked grim. However with COVID and changes to travel patterns, WMT renegotiated the order to have a larger number of 730/0s (ending Class 350 operation on local services in the West Midlands) and a few more /2s as well.

Very interesting and a very lucky escape!

 

[Jamesrob637]

In the UK, 350s. Great crowd swallowers.

In Europe, the Stadler Giruno. Fantastic piece of kit. Two together are just amazing.

 

[physics34]

The Anglia 755s. I thought replacing loco hauled with these odd units was a joke. In fact they are quite pleasant and apart from hardish seats theyre pretty good

 

[supervc-10]

Most modern rolling stock is let down by the passenger cabin.

Look at the Aventra family. The 720 is absolutely horrific, and that's purely because of the 3+2 seating: the seats are too narrow, the aisle is too narrow, the legroom is non-existent. I've not been on a 730 but I presume they are more like the 2+2 bays on the 345, which are really very comfortable. The Aventra platform is, underneath it all, a good train.

Same with the 700/707/717 Desiro City trains. The actual trains are good trains, Siemens make good kit. But the seating is also absolutely horrific, narrow seats wedged into the wall then a huge massive aisle. The 707 not having a toilet was also a bizarre choice to make on a modern train.

I like the 195 and the 197, the only trouble with both of those trains is that they're not big enough. I know that the 195/0 at 124 seats is, nominally, a small capacity upgrade on the 142 and 144 units it replaced, but it is still too small. Same with the 197, 116 seats (due to the aborted first class/premier standard cabin) simply isn't enough. Weirdly, though, I'm more ambivalent about the 331: better than a 323, yes, but not a patch on a 333 or even a 321.

This is 100% spot on. Many things are great about even the 720 - but it's all ruined by seats that are so narrow that I cover 1 and a half of them. Thankfully I rarely end up on them, but on the times where me and my husband have used them, there is zero chance of anyone over the age of 10 being able to sit between us on a bank of three. Neither of us are small... but it's also not like we're unusually big either. I think the seat design itself is actually OK - not great, but not terrible - but it needs the spacers between the seat bases so that a human can actually fit next to another human. If I've got a pair by myself, it's reasonably comfortable.

Anyone sane would have realised it was a terrible idea the moment the first one was kitted out, or first mockups made, but we're going to be stuck with them for decades. The rest of the train is fine! I like the ambiance with the seat colours and 'wood' coach ends, and the PIS system is decent. If they'd just laid out the cabin with 2-2 seating, with spacers, it would have been a really great train.

There's nothing wrong with a 720 (or 700 for that matter) that a decent refurbishment wouldn't fix.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is 100% spot on. Many things are great about even the 720 - but it's all ruined by seats that are so narrow that I cover 1 and a half of them. Thankfully I rarely end up on them, but on the times where me and my husband have used them, there is zero chance of anyone over the age of 10 being able to sit between us on a bank of three. Neither of us are small... but it's also not like we're unusually big either. I think the seat design itself is actually OK - not great, but not terrible - but it needs the spacers between the seat bases so that a human can actually fit next to another human. If I've got a pair by myself, it's reasonably comfortable.

Anyone sane would have realised it was a terrible idea the moment the first one was kitted out, or first mockups made, but we're going to be stuck with them for decades. The rest of the train is fine! I like the ambiance with the seat colours and 'wood' coach ends, and the PIS system is decent. If they'd just laid out the cabin with 2-2 seating, with spacers, it would have been a really great train.

There's nothing wrong with a 720 (or 700 for that matter) that a decent refurbishment wouldn't fix.

The 730 series is the 720 without the "stupid layout" problem.

 

[Mikey C]

Having been out on a 350 earlier on, and back on a 730 this evening, the lighting on the 730 was horribly bright. As it was dark outside, surely it can be turned down a bit, as it wasn't operating a short distance commuter service, but was coming down from Birmingham to London?

 

[tfw756rider]

Having been out on a 350 earlier on, and back on a 730 this evening, the lighting on the 730 was horribly bright. As it was dark outside, surely it can be turned down a bit, as it wasn't operating a short distance commuter service, but was coming down from Birmingham to London?

730/2?

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Having been out on a 350 earlier on, and back on a 730 this evening, the lighting on the 730 was horribly bright. As it was dark outside, surely it can be turned down a bit, as it wasn't operating a short distance commuter service, but was coming down from Birmingham to London?

Strongly agree with this. Went on my first 730 the other night and the lighting was so harsh and bright it was genuinely hurting my eyes, making it completely impossible to relax. I'm sure the ambience is more tolerable during the day but travelling on one at night left a frankly terrible first impression.

 

[Mikey C]

730/2?

Yes a LNR 10 car 730/2 operating from New Street to Euston. A journey time of over 2 hours.

For such a journey, a 350 would be way nicer because of the lighting.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Yes a LNR 10 car 730/2 operating from New Street to Euston. A journey time of over 2 hours.

For such a journey, a 350 would be way nicer because of the lighting.

And the seating which does not force you to sit bolt upright on a hard base!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes a LNR 10 car 730/2 operating from New Street to Euston. A journey time of over 2 hours.

For such a journey, a 350 would be way nicer because of the lighting.

I do find them a bit too bright, though it's not a harsh colour. A bit like, perhaps, the original Mk3 lighting, which was a nice colour but way too bright, I often switched them to dim if the staff weren't looking.

They are adaptable to the outside light levels, though, so as I've seen a few reports of this but only in the last week or two I wonder if they've done a software mod and broken it so they are at maximum brightness all the time?

They do have a fair bit going for them though, being walk through is good and the windows are huge, as are the luggage racks. The base product is definitely a major improvement over the more cramped Electrostar classes, though probably on a par with the Desiro classes.

And the seating which does not force you to sit bolt upright on a hard base!

I like it personally. The shape really suits my back, and I say that as a fan of the Desiro seat. I guess the latter probably wins overall as it suits more people, you pretty much never hear a moan about it. I just wish there was a bit more legroom in the centre sections, though to be fair it's about the same as the centre sections of 350s.

Unfortunately Grammer have withdrawn from the rail passenger seat market, so their excellent designs are no longer an option

 

[FrontSideBus]

If you know you are doing a long journey, you could make a beeline for the declassified "first" section that uses the same seats as TFW standard heh...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They also ended up with the 376, which is an objectively awful train.

That's just it though. It isn't an "objectively" awful train.
If I, for one, would much rather have a 376 than a Networker, then it makes it
a subjectively awful train - to you

 

[rmHawk765]

717s in my book. The FCC/GN 313s were absolutely horrendous as metro units with their entirely unsuitable 3+2 layout and very little standing room (not to mention the possibility of a 3-car turning up for whatever reason in the middle of rush hour!). Very often you'd have to wait for the next train because many of them would be absolutely packed to the brim by Finsbury. Now there is typically still decent room at peak, even though all the seats are taken, and you never really have to wait for the next train unless there are cancellations or whatever, which is a massive improvement in my book. Now all that's left is to actually use them, with only 9/25 units in use off-peak with the 2+2tph frequency! Thankfully though this should change in the December timetable.

However, I am a bit concerned as to how long they'll actually last. They were only built as 6-coach units which was by far the most effective thing to do at the time, maximising use of the existing infrastructure. Now though, Crews Hill New Town is on the horizon, and even a return to the 2019 8tph frequency won't cut it with 6-coach trains once a considerable number of people are living there.

 

[Mikey C]

717s in my book. The FCC/GN 313s were absolutely horrendous as metro units with their entirely unsuitable 3+2 layout and very little standing room (not to mention the possibility of a 3-car turning up for whatever reason in the middle of rush hour!). Very often you'd have to wait for the next train because many of them would be absolutely packed to the brim by Finsbury. Now there is typically still decent room at peak, even though all the seats are taken, and you never really have to wait for the next train unless there are cancellations or whatever, which is a massive improvement in my book. Now all that's left is to actually use them, with only 9/25 units in use off-peak with the 2+2tph frequency! Thankfully though this should change in the December timetable.

However, I am a bit concerned as to how long they'll actually last. They were only built as 6-coach units which was by far the most effective thing to do at the time, maximising use of the existing infrastructure. Now though, Crews Hill New Town is on the horizon, and even a return to the 2019 8tph frequency won't cut it with 6-coach trains once a considerable number of people are living there.

6 cars is the length of the Northern City tunnels, so that's all that can run on those routes. The current frequency is ridiculous, but that's another issue...

 

[Babybirdrobin]

Honestly I think it’d have to be the 755s for me, they’re good units, rarely if every have any capacity issues and just solid pieces of kit. I would say likewise for the 745s. 720s feel very close but the interior ruins it, they’re alright if you can get the little 2+2 bits by the cabs but apart from that good performers with rubbish interiors

Also if we’re going this century 390s are a runaway for me, they’re just work

 

[rmHawk765]

6 cars is the length of the Northern City tunnels, so that's all that can run on those routes.

Yep, that's what I meant by maximising use of existing infrastructure.

The current frequency is ridiculous, but that's another issue...

You can only increase the frequency so much before running out of units, but the 25 units should comfortably allow a 4tph Welwyn + 8tph Gordon Hill/Crews Hill/Hertford/Stevenage service, if not even 4+10tph. The issue is that beyond 8tph, I think it becomes more reasonable to run longer trains than to increase the frequency (which needs more drivers and causes a shorter turnaround), but King's Cross is full so that's not really an option unfortunately...

 

[Clarence Yard]

755 for me. They really are the business.

 

[Tetragon213]

810s are a unit I really like. Though I'm not sure if it's because they're just that good, or because I hate Voyagers that much!

 

[720144]

I’ll have to go for the 357’s as they are pure workhorses for the LTS line. Very comfy padded seats, ride quality is smooth, their new magenta repaint livery makes them look 20 years newer again matching with the 720/6’s that run alongside.