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Learner driver kills her boyfriend

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mumrar

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A teenage learner driver who killed her boyfriend in a high-speed crash and then lied that he had been behind the wheel has walked free from court.

Anna Marie Hibben, then 17, had failed her driving test three times when she drove along a country road at night at up to 67mph with no lights on.

The car clipped another vehicle before veering off the road and smashing into a tree, killing 17-year-old Gary Pitchford.



No licence: Anna Hibben had failed her driving test three times when she drove her boyfriend Gary Pitchford's car. He died when she crashed into a tree

Hibben repeatedly told police she had not been driving his Peugeot 106 but one of her sandals was found wedged beneath the brake pedal.

The Leeds University student eventually admitted causing death by careless driving and having no insurance but escaped with a nine-month suspended sentence, a three-year driving ban, and a three-month curfew.

Judge Christopher Ball QC told her: You were driving that car late at night, you were an inexperienced driver, not necessarily a good driver, still learning. Perhaps you thought you were better than you were.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12...telling-police-hadnt-driving-spared-jail.html
Utter, utter bollocks. Normally I'd be a bit more analytical, but what more can be presented to a judge as needs for a jail term? Why aspire to be James Bond when owning a car gives you a license to kill (be it provisional of full)? If anyone should have serious head injuries as a result of 'the book being thrown at them'. If the circumstances of her driving had been presented as a male of the same age, they'd have mentioned bravado, showing off etc. This is why I fear for our country, because the lunatics are being knowing permitted to run the asylum!
 
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devon_metro

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Agreed, stupid sentence. Especially when considering an old woman round here was sent to jail for not paying Council Tax...
 

the sniper

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The things is though, what would a jail sentence actually achieve here? For the rest of her life she'll have to live with the fact that she killed that lad, someone who she presumable cared a good deal about. Surely that punishment is much more powerful then a couple of years in a prison? Also, you could argue that the lad was nearly as much to blame as the girl; though she pulled the trigger, he loaded and handed her the gun.

If she had killed the person in the other car, then I would say she should get a jail term and she definitely would anyway. The way it went down though, I don't think it makes much difference whether she goes to prison or not. Also, considering prisons aren't a black whole, I'd rather her place in prison go to someone who is a danger to society and shows no remorse for their crime, rather then this girl who is unlikely to re-offend and certainly won't be remorseless.
 

Geezertronic

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It shouldn't matter who she killed, she still killed someone whether it was intentional or not and the punishment should fit the crime. The "she killed someone she loved" line is a poor excuse for a lack of punishment in my opinion.

There are far lesser crimes that get stronger punishments as mentioned above.
 

mumrar

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Hmm, remorseless - Having no pity or compassion; merciless
Remorseless is not someone who tries to blame their dead boyfriend (she really must have loved him) for being at the wheel, rather than accepting the blame. She only admitted it because they found her sandle under the brake pedal. They say that can ruin your life. Well, that's why she should have gone to jail. She forfeited the rights of a law-abiding citizen and should be treated as such.

Just the day before this case another driver who killed a cyclist by a lapse in concentration was given a prison sentence, but she was a license holder, had valid insurance and was not speeding at the time. http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/jail-for-motorist-who-killed-cyclist-rhys-evans-25132
 

the sniper

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I can see where your both coming from, but I still think the guilt she'll live with for the rest of here life will be far more powerful then any prison sentence they could have given her.
 

Oswyntail

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As she was a learner driver, the responsibility for the car is surely in the hands of the unfortunate boyfriend (assuming he had a full licence). I suspect that is why there was comparative lenience. But I do believe there should be a set period between passing your test and being allowed to supervise learners, whatever your age.
 

Bedpan

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I agree with Mumrar. If she had owned up straight away and been full of remorse, I agree that the fact that she would have to live with what happened for the rest of her life would be sufficient punishment. But she didn't, she lied to try to wriggle out of it, probably causing a large sum of public money being spent on investigating the crash and taking her to Court. (Although maybe not so much in this particular case in view of her sandal being there to be seen). I would have thought that a prison sentence would have been a resounding message not to tell lies in the future.
 

mumrar

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But I do believe there should be a set period between passing your test and being allowed to supervise learners, whatever your age.

There is, it is currently having held a full licence for 3 years (without any bans) and being 21 years old or over. Her boyfriend was also 17 years old so that cannot have been the case.
 

royaloak

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Causing death by dangerous driving should carry a mandatory jail term!

This is why this country is in the state it is, people go to jail for not paying Council tax yet criminals like this, she was driving and knew that what she was doing was wrong, if she didn't know it was wrong why did she lie, walk free with a joke of a sentence.
Hopefully this will be looked at because it is unduly lenient in my opinion, and this judge should be sacked because he is obviously out of touch with reality and a waste of taxpayers money.
 

GB

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It seems that in this day and age, unless you are over the limit or under the influence, you are very unlikly to serve any jail time for killing someone on the road. The small amount of cases that do result in a jail term appear to be fairly random.

As for the arguement that the death of someone is punishment enough Im not so sure I agree with that. My brother was killed in a motorcycle accident almost 4 years ago now through no fault of his own. The lad that did cause it through the charge of "driving without due care and attention" (which is another arguement alltoghether) merely got 6 points and a 12 month driving ban.

So after 12 months Im sure he got his life back to normal, out having a laugh with his mates and what not while our family with never get over it really.

Now the fact is true that no sentance would have brought my brother back, but the sentance that was given was just a kick in the teeth and lets face it...really means nothing.

In my opinion if you kill someone on the road through your own negligence then you should recieve a custodial sentance.
 

Tom B

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Why did her boyfriend get in the car with someone who he knew did not have a license, knowing also that he was not suitably qualified to instruct her (not being over 21 and having held his license for 3 years), and then allow her to drive stupidly?
 

mumrar

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Why did her boyfriend get in the car with someone who he knew did not have a license, knowing also that he was not suitably qualified to instruct her (not being over 21 and having held his license for 3 years), and then allow her to drive stupidly?

He'd known her for 4 weeks. Doesn't mean he knew really. The first four weeks I had met my wife, I saw her three times and had travelled by train each time. She didn't know if I did at that point either.
 

Jeff Worsnop

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The things is though, what would a jail sentence actually achieve here? For the rest of her life she'll have to live with the fact that she killed that lad, someone who she presumable cared a good deal about. Surely that punishment is much more powerful then a couple of years in a prison? Also, you could argue that the lad was nearly as much to blame as the girl; though she pulled the trigger, he loaded and handed her the gun.

If she had killed the person in the other car, then I would say she should get a jail term and she definitely would anyway. The way it went down though, I don't think it makes much difference whether she goes to prison or not. Also, considering prisons aren't a black whole, I'd rather her place in prison go to someone who is a danger to society and shows no remorse for their crime, rather then this girl who is unlikely to re-offend and certainly won't be remorseless.

Indeed yes.
But society would nevertheless expect a severe punishment.
If she had lost her temper and killed her boyfriend with a knife in a mad moment all the above would apply but a long custodial sentence would be appropriate.
A severe sentence should also be an expression of society's disapproval and a warning to others not to do the same or similar.
Perhaps she came from a good middle class home and being a nice girl the judge thought jail would be, well, just too much for her.
 

royaloak

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If you can't do the time don't do the crime.
She willingly and knowingly drove that car unlicensed and uninsured, she willingly and knowingly drove like a tw4t, because of her actions somebody died, the fact she may be a "nice girl" should be irrelevant in the eyes of the law, would a chav from a council estate have received the same sentence, do you want 2 sets of laws, 1 for the "nice" people and another set for us "mere mortals", sentences like this just show what a joke our "judicial" system is!
 

mumrar

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I don't think anyone's after a hanging, but undue leniency seems to be the case. As royaloak intimated, I'm sure wealth and quality of legal representation may have played a part, but the mother of the deceased actually requested leniency. I couldn't bear it if she was my own daughter, let alone my sons killer. My kid would be leaving my home, in disgrace. At least the court couldn't deny that punishment.
 

Nick W

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I tread carefully here, as this is clearly a issue for which a lot of people have strong emotive views. As I see it, there are two issues; firstly, the difference in the offences that cover the cases described; the other is whether motoring offences specific to whether or not death is caused are appropriate.

Looking then, at the range of offences we've seen used in the various cases, clearly the offences for driving without insurance and driving without a valid licence are pretty objective. But then we see a subjective distinction between two offences where death has been causes: "causing death by dangerous driving" and causing "death by careless driving". Actually this isn't the full legal picture, but such finer points are moot.

The former, "death by dangerous driving" carries a much tougher sentence, however in order to secure a prosecution, the jury must be persuaded that the driving behaviour was so aggressive, reckless and so inconsiderate that the person can be deemed a maniac and that the person probably needs to be jailed in order to protect other members of society. The latter, however carries a much lighter sentence. It simply covers driving behaviour that is believed to be deficient compared to the expected behaviour of a reasonable driver, but not necessarily actively aggressive or quite so reckless.

I don't doubt that our servants in CPS share our anger at the unnecessary tragedy of death on our roads, but the fact remains that the two sentences are very different. I'm sure that CPS prosecute using the tougher offence where they believe they can secure a conviction, and in the case of the driver who ploughed into and killed cyclist, this was used. However in the case mentioned by the OP, it appears CPS did not think they could secure a conviction using the tougher offence, and so used the lesser offence. I don't doubt the judge's professional ability to have issued the right sentence based on the offence, the defendant was accused of.

The other question then is, is the law deficient by differentiating motoring offences specific to whether a death or not occurred? Clearly in the case, it was not the driving behaviour as such that was at fault, but that the willingness to drive without a licence, which lead to a death. In this case, really the crime is best described as manslaughter. So why have separate crimes for causing death by driving? Well it seems that prior to this, it was difficult to secure convictions with a jury. Therefore the vehicle-related manslaughter offences would indeed be preferable. Unfortunately in this case, the lack of an offence entitled "causing death by unlicensed driving" may well have restricted the Judges ability to deliver a harsher sentence.

I hope this will help shed some light on the judgement, and provide some justification. I actually feel this is the symptom of wider problem, that people just don't take reckless driving seriously enough. I would push for society to remove the distinction between dangerous driving and causing death by dangerous driving, as I believe it is just luck that sets these apart. I would push for far tougher sentences for dangerous driving, irrelevant of whether or not a death or injury was causes, as I feel that 10 deaths a day on our roads are too unacceptable an epidemic. Driving is a privilege, not a right so I would push for a lifetime ban at the first sign of any reckless driving. Finally, I can only hope all who read this who drive will bear this and other tragic accidents in mind when driving and avoid any behaviour likely to cause harm.
 

mumrar

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I can see exactly where you're coming from Nick W, but I find it hard to believe that the CPS couldn't have secured a dangerous driving conviction based on the excessive speed AND no headlights, let alone the paperwork offences also comitted. One other thing I forgot to mention is our insistence on banning people from driving who had no legal right to drive in the first place. They evidently don't care for the law, so why will the ban deter them?
 

the sniper

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Interesting post Nick. :smile:

One other thing I forgot to mention is our insistence on banning people from driving who had no legal right to drive in the first place. They evidently don't care for the law, so why will the ban deter them?

Yes, I've always found this a bizarre and fairly pointless punishment, I suppose it helps to secure a harsher punishment should the person be involved in further driving offences while banned?
 

Nick W

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I can see exactly where you're coming from Nick W, but I find it hard to believe that the CPS couldn't have secured a dangerous driving conviction based on the excessive speed AND no headlights, let alone the paperwork offences also comitted. One other thing I forgot to mention is our insistence on banning people from driving who had no legal right to drive in the first place. They evidently don't care for the law, so why will the ban deter them?

Thank you very much. I think what is required for whoever made the decision at CPS would be the expectation of being able convince the jury that the speeding and lack of headlights was a reckless act, and not simply one of carelessness. The latter case, I'm afraid, drops straight away. Many drivers forget to turn on their lights and often don't realise until pointed out by another driver, and there is no evidence of deliberation. For the former case, we need more detail, was it 67 mph on the straight sections, which I'm sure at least 10% of drivers do on a regular basis, or round the corners, which even the most casual speeders would condemn. If the former, I guess whoever in charged decided it was too risky pushing for the stricter case.

The paperwork offences can't, I'm afraid, contribute to the "death by dangerous driving" case. At some point, I will try and talk to a lawyer here to see when, if ever, CPS might choose to apply a manslaughter offence for cases like this, but this might be why this simply isn't done. Actually, I've just looked up the driving offences, and it seems I'm ignorant. Since 2006 there has been an offence for "driving whilst unlicensed", which carries a jail term of up to 12 months. I reckon this was probably what the defendant was tried under. In this case, it seems it was the judges decision to suspend the girl's sentence. Perhaps he or she felt that the girl did not present a risk to society if released when the sentence was suspended. I have no problem with this, but I would agree with all those who feel that driving bans are too short.

The sentencing guidelines can be found here: http://www.sentencing-guidelines.gov.uk/docs/death-by-driving-cons-guideline.pdf
Interestingly, "irresponsible behaviour such as failing to
stop or falsely claiming that someone else was driving" is listing as an aggravating factor, so I'm surprised the sentence was suspended. On the other side, that "the victim was a close friend or relative" is listed as a mitigating factor, and may have paid for the girl to walk "free".

I think some serious points have been made about the short length of driving bans, and this is an area in which I'd love to see reform!
 

Geezertronic

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Personally I think the law should consider a mandatory manslaughter charge for circumstances like this.

Careless driving is doing 35mph in a 30mph zone. Dangerous driving is causing an accident due to the dangerous nature of the offenders driving. If anyone looses their life as a result of careless or dangerous driving then a manslaughter charge should automatically apply.
 

Trog

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I think a suspended sentence is appropriate for someone behaving this recklessly feet about 6" off the ground would do nicely.
 

Nick W

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I managed to speak to a lawyer earlier, though being first-year she wasn't all that knowledgeable, and said that CPS could choose to prosecute under manslaughter in these circumstances, but wasn't sure why they might tend to choose not to. At the end of the day, the defendant is tried by a jury and CPS can only prosecute under whichever offence they believe will secure a conviction.

Personally I think the law should consider a mandatory manslaughter charge for circumstances like this.

Careless driving is doing 35mph in a 30mph zone. Dangerous driving is causing an accident due to the dangerous nature of the offenders driving.

Or, from the sentencing guidelines:

Dangerous driving
Code:
 Aggressive driving (such as sudden lane changes or cutting into a line of vehicles) 
or Racing or competitive driving or Speed that is highly inappropriate for the 
prevailing road or traffic conditions 
 
• Disregard of traffic lights and other road signs which, on an objective analysis, 
would appear to be deliberate 
 
• Driving a vehicle knowing it has a dangerous defect  or with a load which presents 
a danger to other road users  
 
• Using a hand-held mobile phone or other hand-held electronic equipment when 
the driver was avoidably and dangerously distracted by that use 
  
• Driving when too tired to stay awake  or where the driver is suffering from impaired 
ability such as having an arm or leg in plaster, or impaired eyesight

Careless driving
Code:
• overtaking on the inside or driving inappropriately close to another vehicle 
 
• inadvertent mistakes such as driving through a red light or emerging from a side 
road into the path of another vehicle 
 
• short distractions such as tuning a car radio

If anyone looses their life as a result of careless or dangerous driving then a manslaughter charge should automatically apply.

It's a fair opinion, but could you give it some more analysis and tell us why? I think you need to tell us why the current offences of causing death are inappropriate or unsatisfactory and let us know what you think the effects on society would be if that were to be implemented.


I think a suspended sentence is appropriate for someone behaving this recklessly feet about 6" off the ground would do nicely.
Sounds rather hung-over to me!
 

devon_metro

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Personally I think the law should consider a mandatory manslaughter charge for circumstances like this.

Careless driving is doing 35mph in a 30mph zone.

But is it? A local road to me used to be 40mph, however was reduced to 30mph due to an accident not caused by speed. Is it now so much more careless to drive at 35, compared to previously? I think not.

Careless driving is not driving according to the conditions as far as i'm concerned.
 

mumrar

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I'd agree devon_metro, which is why I think hitting an oncoming car, with no lights on and speeding fits the bill. People have to be accountable for not having headlights on - they obviously never check their speed either, as they'd have an unlit dashboard to look at.
 

Oswyntail

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But is it? A local road to me used to be 40mph, however was reduced to 30mph due to an accident not caused by speed. Is it now so much more careless to drive at 35, compared to previously? I think not.

Careless driving is not driving according to the conditions as far as i'm concerned.
Without wishing to be flamed, surely the speed limit is part of the conditions? And, AFAIK, the law does not distinguish between "extremely careless" and "very careless".
 

ChrisCooper

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I don't think careless driving could ever be considered manslaughter. As I understand it Involuntary manslaughter requires the person to kill whilst carrying out a dangerous criminal act. Negligance is not enough. Remember it's not just car drivers who kill through carelessness, and more than a few rail staff have escaped manslaughter prosecutions due to simple carelessness. The same applies for so many professions.
On the other hand, I think death by dangerous driving should be equivalent to manslaughter, and in any other circumstance would be. If you kill by dangerous use of any other instrument it's manslaughter, so why should dangerous use of a road vehicle be different?
Of cource, what is defined as careless and what is defined as dangerous is another subject, but driving at night with no lights on and travelling at excessive speed (not just a few mph over the limit) is IMHO clearly dangerous.
 
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