Leaf Mulch Microwave Weapon

[Deepgreen]

Unsure whether to post this here or in 'Infrastructure' but opted for here on the basis that it would be rolling stock-mounted.

The BBC news web site carries an item today concerning the development of a train-borne microwave device that would target rail-head leaf mulch and vaporise the moisture to improve adhesion. Item originally broadcast on yesterday's Radio 4 'PM' programme.

Sounds plausible, but the developer being interviewed slipped up somewhat when he claimed that the power consumed by the system would only be needed when the train is braking and would therefore not be using power at that point. This, of course, ignores half the problem, in that accelerating trains can be just as badly affected by poor adhesion!

As an aside, the most relevant photo the BBC could find to illustrate the issue seems to have been a garden railway!

 

[coppercapped]

Unsure whether to post this here or in 'Infrastructure' but opted for here on the basis that it would be rolling stock-mounted.

The BBC news web site carries an item today concerning the development of a train-borne microwave device that would target rail-head leaf mulch and vaporise the moisture to improve adhesion. Item originally broadcast on yesterday's Radio 4 'PM' programme.

Sounds plausible, but the developer being interviewed slipped up somewhat when he claimed that the power consumed by the system would only be needed when the train is braking and would therefore not be using power at that point. This, of course, ignores half the problem, in that accelerating trains can be just as badly affected by poor adhesion!

As an aside, the most relevant photo the BBC could find to illustrate the issue seems to have been a garden railway!

Shades of BR's plasma torch...

 

[edwin_m]

Dry leaf mulch may be better for adhesion but it is worse for operating track circuits.

 

[WatcherZero]

I thought they were trying the same thing with lasers.

 

[DarloRich]

all kinds of things have been tried. The best, so far, is high pressure water.

 

[hwl]

all kinds of things have been tried. The best, so far, is high pressure water.

Especially for getting passengers to stand behind the yellow line!

 

[Bald Rick]

all kinds of things have been tried. The best, so far, is high pressure water.

The best, undoubtedly, is cutting down every tree anywhere near the railway, including those outside the boundary fence.

Not very popular though.

 

[najaB]

If the microwave cooks the leaves then they can't be cooked by the wheels. In theory that should prevent the layer of gunk building up on the rail surface.

 

[DarloRich]

The best, undoubtedly, is cutting down every tree anywhere near the railway, including those outside the boundary fence.

Not very popular though.

indeed - but that relies on the good old fashioned chainsaw

 

[markhester]

Unsure whether to post this here or in 'Infrastructure' but opted for here on the basis that it would be rolling stock-mounted.

The BBC news web site carries an item today concerning the development of a train-borne microwave device that would target rail-head leaf mulch and vaporise the moisture to improve adhesion. Item originally broadcast on yesterday's Radio 4 'PM' programme.

Sounds plausible, but the developer being interviewed slipped up somewhat when he claimed that the power consumed by the system would only be needed when the train is braking and would therefore not be using power at that point. This, of course, ignores half the problem, in that accelerating trains can be just as badly affected by poor adhesion!

As an aside, the most relevant photo the BBC could find to illustrate the issue seems to have been a garden railway!

Hi Everyone
Really interesting to read your thoughts on the Radio 4 piece. I am 'the developer' who was interviewed about the project.
I couldn't agree more about the opportunity for the technology to apply in a range of applications including freight trains requiring better adhesion when starting to move.
The scope of the project funded by the RSSB and InnovateUK is for solutions that improve predictable and optimised braking on passenger trains which is why the news reports have been focussing on this.
I'm sure you will appreciate that the media tends to look for soundbites so we have not had the chance to go into the science behind it all in detail. Also, there are some IP issues that mean we can't reveal too much at this stage anyway.
However, we are helping with an article that will be in The Engineer magazine that will hopefully cover more angles.
On the subject of the media please be aware that we did one interview for The Times that was mostly accurate and then ITV news and Radio 4. All other reports at this stage are second hand. So, we are not proposing to dangle cables in front of the wheels and blast 120kW rays all over the place as some have suggested!

 

[DarloRich]

what work have you undertaken with NR to get them on board and develop a real world trial?

 

[Deepgreen]

Hi Everyone
Really interesting to read your thoughts on the Radio 4 piece. I am 'the developer' who was interviewed about the project.
I couldn't agree more about the opportunity for the technology to apply in a range of applications including freight trains requiring better adhesion when starting to move.
The scope of the project funded by the RSSB and InnovateUK is for solutions that improve predictable and optimised braking on passenger trains which is why the news reports have been focussing on this.
I'm sure you will appreciate that the media tends to look for soundbites so we have not had the chance to go into the science behind it all in detail. Also, there are some IP issues that mean we can't reveal too much at this stage anyway.
However, we are helping with an article that will be in The Engineer magazine that will hopefully cover more angles.
On the subject of the media please be aware that we did one interview for The Times that was mostly accurate and then ITV news and Radio 4. All other reports at this stage are second hand. So, we are not proposing to dangle cables in front of the wheels and blast 120kW rays all over the place as some have suggested!

Interesting. I would point out though, that it is not just trains starting from rest, nor just freight trains, that experience adhesion problems under acceleration - it can be a significant contributor to late running of passenger trains already running at some speed, especially running uphill. The problem of track circuits being affected by dry leaf mulch is pertinent - have you considered that issue?
Good to read your thoughts presented on this forum.

 

[Waldgrun]

Will this go the way way of the so called "Swedish Scrubber" used by Network Southeast!
Not that I would recommend that anyone googles this!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would microwaves have any un-intended side affects on either signalling systems or traction supply (especially 3rd rail areas)?

 

[Clip]

Interesting. I would point out though, that it is not just trains starting from rest, nor just freight trains, that experience adhesion problems under acceleration - it can be a significant contributor to late running of passenger trains already running at some speed, especially running uphill. The problem of track circuits being affected by dry leaf mulch is pertinent - have you considered that issue?
Good to read your thoughts presented on this forum.

Givenn who the money is coming from I would be confident in saying that yes, they have thought of it.

Ill have to see if I can catch it on iPlayer as sounds interestign.

 

[najaB]

Would microwaves have any un-intended side affects on either signalling systems or traction supply (especially 3rd rail areas)?

Can't really see why - it's just high frequency radio waves (or really low frequency light if you prefer ).

 

[Domh245]

Can't really see why - it's just high frequency radio waves (or really low frequency light if you prefer ).

Those electromagnetic waves that can interfere with electrical equipment like track circuits?

 

[edwin_m]

Too high a frequency to create wrong side failures of track circuits, as they are all below 500Hz. However a microwave able to frazzle leaves in the split second of passing over them at 100mph would have to be pretty powerful, and there could be a risk of inducing damaging currents into trackside cables or the rails themselves. The hazard to anybody nearby would also need to be considered.

 

[snowball]

There have been at least two hi-tech attempts in the past to deal with this problem. The first was a plasma torch. I forget what the second called itself. If I remember correctly they both failed because they would have required unrealistically high power to work.

 

[HSTEd]

An argument for electrification everywhere then.
On 25kV there would several megawatts available for the torch/laser