LDS to DON CDR rip off

[RolandR]

I have just booked for travel in June, Doncaster to Kings Cross £9.00, KGX to DON £9.00 (on a train to Leeds), Standard Day Ret LDS to DON £10.50. I change at DON on the way down but I stay on the same train all the way back to LDS. Total is £28.50 and I arrive in London before 10.00.

My departure from LDS in the morning is at 7.00, during the morning peak, but the day return fare from LDS to DON remains the same at £10.50 all day. There is no Cheap Day Return fare available on this route. The fare is set by NXEC. I'm not blaming NXEC, they inherited this from GNER, but off peak day passengers are clearly being ripped off. Most especially those passengers who get the Northern stopper rather than NXEC. On Northern, the fare can be cut to just £6.00 by splitting at South Elmsall, a huge reduction but how many passengers know this? Are there any other similar routes, within CDR range, where only a premium day return fare is available?

 

[1D53]

Same also applies between Wakefield & Doncaster - especially odd as its less than 20 miles.

The same applies Leeds - Sheffield but not Wakefield - Sheffield.

 

[RolandR]

Same also applies between Wakefield & Doncaster - especially odd as its less than 20 miles.

The same applies Leeds - Sheffield but not Wakefield - Sheffield.

Thanks for the reply.

I know that the same applies with Wakefield.

For LDS to SHF the "any permitted" ticket allows travel via Doncaster and is set by NXEC, so there is no CDR. However. there is a "not Doncaster" fare set by Northern. This ticket can be used on all of the slow and fast Northern trains on this route, plus CrossCountry and East Midlands and there is an off peak CDR available. Most day return passengers will be sold this ticket. There's only a couple of trains a day that call at DON and you cannot change at DON with this ticket.

 

[Hornby APT]

Slightly off topic byt there are a few journeys I make where it is cheaper for me to break my journey in York
eg Newcastle - Leeds single buy a CDR to york and CDS York to Leeds and it works out about £5 cheaper than a Standard single through fare. When ever booking in the north I always look at different fare combinations to see if breaking it works out cheaper. A good article on cheaper ticketing is here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6442947.stm
The article is over a year old so fares have changed but it gives you a good idea on things to try.

 

[yorkie]

...There's only a couple of trains a day that call at DON and you cannot change at DON with this ticket.

but can you go via DON on a direct train on a "not Doncaster" ticket? I've not seen a conclusive answer to that.

EMT think the answer is "no", but I'm not so sure.

I wonder if the via-Doncaster trains get any ORCATS revenue from the not Doncaster fares?

 

[John @ home]

Originally Posted by Yorkie:
... can you go via DON on a direct train on a "not Doncaster" ticket?

I don't think there is much doubt you can't validly use a Leeds - Sheffield route not Doncaster ticket on a train which stops at Doncaster.

But what about the 2359 non-stop Sheffield - Leeds train? This is timed to travel via Doncaster, but when I last caught it the route was via Rotherham Central, Moorthorpe and Wakefield Westgate, not via Doncaster. The ticket web sites won't sell a Leeds - Sheffield route not Doncaster CDR ticket if you choose the 2359 train, but I don't understand how it can be invalid.

A member of the public can't be expected to know unpublished information on the route a non-stop train is planned to take on a particular day.

John

 

[yorkie]

I don't think there is much doubt you can't validly use a Leeds - Sheffield route not Doncaster ticket on a train which stops at Doncaster.

Hmm..

All "Route NOT x" tickets that I am aware of disallow you from going via a location that is a bit out of your way. I am not aware of any other routes where a "NOT x" ticket exists where there are direct trains going via x. So the "NOT DONCASTER" tickets could be unique in that respect.

Normally direct trains are always expected to be valid, even if the route is not otherwise valid.

For example, Peterborough-Ipswich-London is not a valid route between Peterborough and London. But the direct trains are permitted regardless.

But what about the 2359 non-stop Sheffield - Leeds train? This is timed to travel via Doncaster, but when I last caught it the route was via Rotherham Central, Moorthorpe and Wakefield Westgate, not via Doncaster. The ticket web sites won't sell a Leeds - Sheffield route not Doncaster CDR ticket if you choose the 2359 train, but I don't understand how it can be invalid.

A member of the public can't be expected to know unpublished information on the route a non-stop train is planned to take on a particular day.

John

I agree a member of the public can't be expected to know that, but I don't think that a train that is timetabled to call at Doncaster can be invalid while a train that takes an identical route but does not call can be valid. It's the routeing, not the calling pattern, that makes a route valid or not.

Trains do not have to call at a station for the route to take effect. A prominent example would be the "Route High Wycombe" tickets.

IMO the question is: "Does the 'direct trains are always valid' rule trump the routeing rule? or does the routeing rule trump the direct trains rule?"

Short answer: we don't know.

As for thecrapline.con not selling that ticket; the same applies on Sundays when XC journeys are regularly divered via Donny. It is madness for people to have to pay extra for that diversion! Equally thecrapline will not sell tickets for "Route Direct" journeys that involve changing trains because it incorrectly interprets "Route Direct" to mean "Direct trains only". The programmers of the site are not exactly the world's elite and the site is less customer-focussed than the fictional hotel Fawlty Towers.

The purpose of the "Not Doncaster" ticket is probably to get people to avoid the busy ECML services to/from London.

Now that we have a regular fast service via Barnsley, I would propose scrapping the "Not Doncaster" ticket, and introducing a "Route Barnsley" ticket at a considerably cheaper price. That would really encourage people to use the NT fast service and relieve the overcrowding that occurs on Voyagers. At the moment, you have a situation where almost everyone crams on to the XC services which get wedged.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think the routeing 'not Doncaster' takes precedence over the direct train rule on the basis that even though it is direct, it goes via Doncaster, which is not a valid route by definition of the routeing, in the same way as a 'route Doncaster' ticket would only be valid via Doncaster by route definition, regardless of direct trains on other routes. The restrictions are based on timetabled routes and times and not actual times and routes for the ease of everyone.

That said, if a guard came across a ticket routed 'not Doncaster' on a train that is not advertised to stop or pass through Doncaster, he might go with common sense and allow it, if it is apparent that the passenger was unaware of the route the train took.

 

[John @ home]

Short answer: we don't know.

Agreed. All we can do is try to interpret rules, guides and other publications, not all of which are readily available, and some of which contain inaccuracies and/or contradictions.

Normally direct trains are always expected to be valid, even if the route is not otherwise valid.

I think the best reference here is from Section A of the National Routeing Guide:
"Most customers wish to make journeys by through trains or by the shortest route. In both cases they will be travelling on a permitted route, provided the correct fare has been paid to reflect any routeing indicated by the fares manual."
This suggests to me that an "Any Permitted" ticket is needed to travel on a through Sheffield - Leeds train which stops at Doncaster (or, in theory, stops at any other station which implies a route via Doncaster, such as Conisborough or Bentley) and that a route "not Doncaster" ticket is not valid.

I am not aware of any other routes where a "NOT x" ticket exists where there are direct trains going via x. So the "NOT DONCASTER" tickets could be unique in that respect.

This may be the only instance where a through train is excluded by a route restriction, but there are many instances where what ATOC determine to be the shortest route is excluded in this way.

For example, from St Pancras to East Croydon, the SDS costs £4.10 route not Underground and £5.80 route + any permitted, but ATOC deem the latter route to be shorter because they count underground journeys at zero length. I have not known anyone successfully claim that the route not Underground ticket is valid on the Underground (when the Thameslink route is open).

I would propose scrapping the "Not Doncaster" ticket, and introducing a "Route Barnsley" ticket at a considerably cheaper price. That would really encourage people to use the NT fast service and relieve the overcrowding that occurs on Voyagers.

I don't think that particular change is likely because I can't see what's in it for Northern - the owner of the route not Doncaster fare. At present they receive ORCATS income from this fare with the number of seats provided on through trains being an element in the equation. I think they provide the majority of the seats at present, and this will increase when the Leeds - Nottingham service starts.

But I do think there are likely to be fare changes to attempt to relieve the overcrowding, particularly on Voyagers. The Delivering a Sustainable Railway White Paper raises the possibility of allowing long distance operators to choose whether or not to accept PTE priced tickets for local journeys. I would imagine EMT, NXEC and XC would all be in favour of this change. Prepare for the howls of protest from commuters forced to pay more or downgrade to a local train. For this reason, I expect it will be introduced just after the next general election.

John

 

[yorkie]

I don't think that particular change is likely because I can't see what's in it for Northern - the owner of the route not Doncaster fare. At present they receive ORCATS income from this fare with the number of seats provided on through trains being an element in the equation. I think they provide the majority of the seats at present, and this will increase when the Leeds - Nottingham service starts.

I don't think they do, because as far as ORCATS is concerned there are only 2 TPH between Leeds and Sheffield, xx10 XC (1151) and xx16 NT (1215). ORCATS will probably give the xx16 more than it's fair share as I don't think it takes into count the fact that it is just 6 mins later than XC so hardly anyone will get on it. But XC definitely get the lion's share of that. In the reverse direction there is xx21 XC and xx51 NT. The NT services are only 2 coaches long.

At present there is no incentive to go via Barnsley, via Donny is expensive, so everyone crams on the Voyager.

 

[John @ home]

I don't think they do, because as far as ORCATS is concerned there are only 2 TPH between Leeds and Sheffield

Ah, yes. I had forgotten that overtaken trains are not counted.

John

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....For example, from St Pancras to East Croydon, the SDS costs £4.10 route not Underground and £5.80 route + any permitted, but ATOC deem the latter route to be shorter because they count underground journeys at zero length. I have not known anyone successfully claim that the route not Underground ticket is valid on the Underground (when the Thameslink route is open)....

The NFM is quite specific on this example.

Section L:

Inter-availability Arrangements for National Rail and London Underground (LU) and/or Docklands Light Railway (DLR) Tickets

between West Hamspstead Thameslink and Moorgate/Elephant & Castle/London Bridge

between West Hampstead and Moorgate/London Bridge/Elephant & Castle by Jubilee, District and Circle Lines (via Westminster) to Blackfriars, BUT NOT tickets routed ‘FIRST CAPITAL CONNECT ONLY’, ‘LDN NOT UNDERGROUND’ or ‘NOT UNDERGROUND’

It would obviously not be valid via Victoria as rail fares are not inter available that way unless they are to start or end at zone 1 or are routed '+London'

I think the routeing on the ticket must take precedence over the direct train rule, and for that matter the shortest route rule, as I stated above, otherwise there would be no point in the routeings.